About divine love
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21-05-2014, 03:20 PM
About divine love
I've been reading 21 pages of a very disappointing thread where some christian guy "addressed" statements with questions, rather than addressing questions with statements. At some point, the guy has declared some sort of jesuslike love and that's made me wonder... what does he mean by "love"?

I'd like to know what other people understand by "love" but meanwhile I can describe the notion I attach to the word, based on my own experience and my observations of other living things around me, so it might just be a load of bullshit.

Studying love among human beings is often confusing because a considerable proportion of us are fucking liars when it comes to declaring love. Well, maybe not fucking liars but liars with the intention of fucking. "I love you" often means "I'd be very happy if I were copulating with you right now", but if that were the only meaning attributable to the word, Jesus' love (and by extension the christian guy's) would sound really creepy. Then again, seeing all those priests and their love for children...

Love is probably related to our experience of receiving intense pleasure because we often use the word in reference to things that cannot be shagged, such as food, sports, music... I often get great pleasure from spending time with my family, watching the children grow; they're funny little things, at least much of the time. And that is most likely the reason why I love them. But what do I mean when I say that I do? That when we have different interests or goals, I try to put theirs before mine.

Mothers who love their children put their children's interests before their own, and so do fathers who love their children. Members of couples who love each other do not exploit their partners for their own benefit. Friends who love their friends are often driven by their friends' needs. Dogs will risk their lives for the human companions they love, and humans who love their pets will go to great lengths to make their pets' lives enjoyable... in all, I'd say loving a living being implies putting their needs before your own, and we generally do it because of the pleasure we gain from the relationship. Does love seem something similar from your point of view?

Now, if love results from pleasure and it causes us to put the interests of those who we love before our own, can the following be described as a declaration of love? Is it a manifestation of the amount of joy received from the relationship with the loved ones? Is it putting one's own interests after those of the loved ones?

Quote:I am Yahweh your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me, and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

I'd say Yahweh probably wants to shag us. (Edit: it probably would if it weren't an imaginary entity in people's minds)
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21-05-2014, 03:30 PM
RE: About divine love
I think love is a pretty subjective term, and probably changes from person to person. The same as pain, happiness, and sadness.

I've heard some people refer to god's love for his children to be similar to how an abuser "loves" their victim. Always seemed fitting to me.

Love me, or suffer eternal torment. Do not question, or disobey me. Do not put your family (or anything else for that matter) above me.

Just icky No

I hope that the world turns, and things get better. But what I hope most of all is that you understand what I mean when I tell you that, even though I do not know you, and even though I may never meet you, laugh with you, cry with you, or kiss you, I love you. With all my heart, I love you. - V for Vendetta
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21-05-2014, 03:38 PM (This post was last modified: 21-05-2014 03:42 PM by living thing.)
RE: About divine love
Hello Smercury44, how are you?

(21-05-2014 03:30 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  "Love me, or suffer eternal torment. Do not question, or disobey me. Do not put your family (or anything else for that matter) above me."
Well, that is the thing. To me, it seems like the god thing is demanding unconditional love from everyone else. However, it does not put its interests before after its loved ones' interests; you can kill other human beings and still be sent to heaven if you just love the god thing unconditionally.

God demands love, but does not exert it.

Thanks for your view!

(Edit: fixed brain fart)
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21-05-2014, 03:51 PM
RE: About divine love
Brilliant post, I'm affraid I won't be able to do justice to it, but I'll say the following.

(21-05-2014 03:20 PM)living thing Wrote:  That when we have different interests or goals, I try to put theirs before mine.

I think ^that^ has pretty much the essence of what I find love to be. It's the appreciation of another person to such a degree that you sincerely and gladly put their interests before your own. The appreciation is something, however, which does not come out of thin air, but requires a shared history of intimate relations.

As for the Bible, there seems to be an immense cultural gap between now and then in the question of what constitutes love. I cannot relate to the concept of love that is portrayed most anywhere between its covers, for it seems extremely selfish, jealous and abusive by nature, which means having your own interests on the top.

Τί ἐστιν ἀλήθεια?
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21-05-2014, 04:49 PM
RE: About divine love
It means that he is going to troll and show his ass all over this forum, and call it "love". Hobo


War is Peace

Freedom is Slavery

Ignorance is Strength

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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22-05-2014, 01:41 AM
RE: About divine love
Hello John, how is it going? Thank you for your kind words.

(21-05-2014 03:51 PM)John Wrote:  
(21-05-2014 03:20 PM)living thing Wrote:  That when we have different interests or goals, I try to put theirs before mine.
I think ^that^ has pretty much the essence of what I find love to be (...)

As for the Bible, there seems to be an immense cultural gap between now and then in the question of what constitutes love. I cannot relate to the concept of love that is portrayed most anywhere between its covers, for it seems extremely selfish, jealous and abusive by nature, which means having your own interests on the top.
I'm thinking... do children love their parents in the sense that we have both described?

Children are often selfish and they do not always understand the value of putting other people's interests before their own; some because they are too young, and some because they never will. The god thing clearly demands that others love it like we have described, but in turn "loves" back like a selfish child.

Maybe when christians say "I love you like God does" they mean "you must put my interests before your own". Or maybe is just a synonym for trolling, like Taq suggests.

Thanks for sharing your perspective. Have fun!
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22-05-2014, 01:43 AM
RE: About divine love
(21-05-2014 04:49 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  It means that he is going to troll and show his ass all over this forum, and call it "love". Hobo
Certainly, the evidence seems to point that way.

(21-05-2014 04:49 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  War is Peace

Freedom is Slavery

Ignorance is Strength
And democracy is choosing your dictator. Crazy planet!

Cheers Taq, have a good one!
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22-05-2014, 02:13 AM
RE: About divine love
(21-05-2014 03:20 PM)living thing Wrote:  I'd say Yahweh probably wants to shag us. (Edit: it probably would if it weren't an imaginary entity in people's minds)

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Swing with me a while, we can listen to the birds call, we can keep each other warm.
Swing with me forever, we can count up every flower, we can weather every storm.
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22-05-2014, 02:19 AM
RE: About divine love
(22-05-2014 01:41 AM)living thing Wrote:  Hello John, how is it going? Thank you for your kind words.

(21-05-2014 03:51 PM)John Wrote:  I think ^that^ has pretty much the essence of what I find love to be (...)

As for the Bible, there seems to be an immense cultural gap between now and then in the question of what constitutes love. I cannot relate to the concept of love that is portrayed most anywhere between its covers, for it seems extremely selfish, jealous and abusive by nature, which means having your own interests on the top.
I'm thinking... do children love their parents in the sense that we have both described?

Children are often selfish and they do not always understand the value of putting other people's interests before their own; some because they are too young, and some because they never will. The god thing clearly demands that others love it like we have described, but in turn "loves" back like a selfish child.

Maybe when christians say "I love you like God does" they mean "you must put my interests before your own". Or maybe is just a synonym for trolling, like Taq suggests.

Thanks for sharing your perspective. Have fun!

Even when my daughter was a toddler, she was very conscientious of how I was feeling, and would "take care" of me when I was sick. She appeared to be very genuine. I do believe that children do have this capacity, though this is only based on personal and very isolated observation.

A person very dear to me was badly hurt through a misunderstanding and miscommunication. For this, I am sorry, and he knows it. That said, any blaming me for malicious intent is for the birds. I will not wear some scarlet letter, I will not be anybody's whipping girl, and I will not lurk in silence.
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22-05-2014, 02:44 AM
RE: About divine love
(22-05-2014 02:19 AM)Charis Wrote:  
(22-05-2014 01:41 AM)living thing Wrote:  Hello John, how is it going? Thank you for your kind words.

I'm thinking... do children love their parents in the sense that we have both described?

Children are often selfish and they do not always understand the value of putting other people's interests before their own; some because they are too young, and some because they never will. The god thing clearly demands that others love it like we have described, but in turn "loves" back like a selfish child.

Maybe when christians say "I love you like God does" they mean "you must put my interests before your own". Or maybe is just a synonym for trolling, like Taq suggests.

Thanks for sharing your perspective. Have fun!

Even when my daughter was a toddler, she was very conscientious of how I was feeling, and would "take care" of me when I was sick. She appeared to be very genuine. I do believe that children do have this capacity, though this is only based on personal and very isolated observation.

Having empathy was an evolutionary advantageous trait for our very social species as we came down from the trees in Africa to compete on the open savannah without the physical advantages of the other apex predators. Now that empathy gets layers of social interaction and mores added to it as we grow older and interact with society at large. But some people are genuinely born without this ability, and we label this deficiency as psychopathy. At base, it appears that the empathy we are almost all born with, is the basis for love; as such 'love' as we understand it can only be experienced by creatures that have developed sufficient mental capacities to support an imagination (itself the basis of empathy, or imagining how another entity feels).

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