About divine love
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22-05-2014, 03:36 AM (This post was last modified: 22-05-2014 04:09 AM by John.)
RE: About divine love
(22-05-2014 01:41 AM)living thing Wrote:  Hello John, how is it going? Thank you for your kind words.

(21-05-2014 03:51 PM)John Wrote:  I think ^that^ has pretty much the essence of what I find love to be (...)

As for the Bible, there seems to be an immense cultural gap between now and then in the question of what constitutes love. I cannot relate to the concept of love that is portrayed most anywhere between its covers, for it seems extremely selfish, jealous and abusive by nature, which means having your own interests on the top.
I'm thinking... do children love their parents in the sense that we have both described?

Children are often selfish and they do not always understand the value of putting other people's interests before their own; some because they are too young, and some because they never will. The god thing clearly demands that others love it like we have described, but in turn "loves" back like a selfish child.

Maybe when christians say "I love you like God does" they mean "you must put my interests before your own". Or maybe is just a synonym for trolling, like Taq suggests.

Thanks for sharing your perspective. Have fun!

I'm not in the best position to have a take on how children love their parents or anyone else, and how that differs from adults' love, but based on my own recollections, observations and some anecdotal evidence, I'd say that you're probably right in that children don't put the interests of their loved ones before their own in the same way that adults would, so call it infantile love if you will. (And that does indeed seem closer to the idea of love as portrayed in the Bible.) Why this is the case is difficult to answer, but I could go out on a limb here and suggest that it has to do with their inadequate capability to emphasize, for it is not a simple task to always know your loved one's interests nor act according to them when they conflict your own.

I remember an anecdote Bill Maher once told about when he was a child: Their family was on the way somewhere by car and they stopped at a gas station, one of the parents went out to buy ice-creams but bought one too few, so when they continued his mother sayed something akin to: "Well, when there's one too few, you know who'll leave without one." And to that Bill told how he remembered how sad it made him feel, but at the same time he didn't think for a moment of handing over his ice-cream Big Grin Make of that what you will.

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22-05-2014, 03:48 AM
RE: About divine love
(22-05-2014 02:13 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  What if Yahweh already is shagging us... And we just don't realize it's happening?
Maybe, but I don't see how that would be possible.
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22-05-2014, 03:59 AM
RE: About divine love
(22-05-2014 02:19 AM)Charis Wrote:  Even when my daughter was a toddler, she was very conscientious of how I was feeling, and would "take care" of me when I was sick. She appeared to be very genuine. I do believe that children do have this capacity, though this is only based on personal and very isolated observation.
But a very interesting one. I guess I should have said some children rather than speak of children in general.

It may even depend on the situation; we're not necessarily loving all the time. But I'd say children's difficulties at taking care of anyone's interests make it less likely that they will put other people's interests before their own, not because of their character, but because of their temporary inability to solve other people's needs. However, it can also be due to their selfish character; not every adult is a loving one.

Enjoy the love of your daughter; take care of her and let her take care of you.
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22-05-2014, 04:04 AM
RE: About divine love
(22-05-2014 02:44 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  ... as such 'love' as we understand it can only be experienced by creatures that have developed sufficient mental capacities to support an imagination (itself the basis of empathy, or imagining how another entity feels).
Do you think non-human animals cannot display love towards other animals? That cat that recently risked his/her own integrity in order to protect a child from a dog, wouldn't you say that he or she was displaying love towards the child? Or maybe cats and dogs are imaginative beings too?

What do you reckon?

Cheers!
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22-05-2014, 04:14 AM
RE: About divine love
(22-05-2014 03:36 AM)John Wrote:  I remember an anecdote Bill Maher once told about when he was a child: Their family was on the way somewhere by car and they stopped at a gas station, one of the parents went out to buy ice-creams but bought one too few, so when they continued his mother sayed something akin to: "Well, when there's one too few, you know who'll leave without one." And to that Bill told how he remembered how sad it made him feel, but at the same time he didn't think for a moment of handing over his ice-cream Big Grin
Like Charis suggests, the degree of selfishness probably depends on the child (or adult) being considered, but I must confess I was probably more like Bill Maher than like Charis' toddler. In my case, the value of mutual cooperation was learned, not an innate skill.

Thanks once more for your thoughts. Have fun!
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22-05-2014, 05:30 AM
RE: About divine love
(22-05-2014 04:04 AM)living thing Wrote:  
(22-05-2014 02:44 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  ... as such 'love' as we understand it can only be experienced by creatures that have developed sufficient mental capacities to support an imagination (itself the basis of empathy, or imagining how another entity feels).
Do you think non-human animals cannot display love towards other animals? That cat that recently risked his/her own integrity in order to protect a child from a dog, wouldn't you say that he or she was displaying love towards the child? Or maybe cats and dogs are imaginative beings too?

What do you reckon?

Cheers!

I think they have some capacity for imagination, much as they certainly do for learning and remembrance.

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22-05-2014, 06:41 AM
RE: About divine love
Hello again EvolutionKills, how are you? Thanks for coming back.

(22-05-2014 05:30 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(22-05-2014 04:04 AM)living thing Wrote:  Do you think non-human animals cannot display love towards other animals? That cat that recently risked his/her own integrity in order to protect a child from a dog, wouldn't you say that he or she was displaying love towards the child? Or maybe cats and dogs are imaginative beings too?

What do you reckon?
I think they have some capacity for imagination, much as they certainly do for learning and remembrance.
I guess that might depend on what we understand by "imagination" and what animals we are talking about.

If imagination is the process by which the brain produces complex abstract notions by combining simpler ones and then feeds the result to itself, as if the notions had arrived through the senses, for subsequent cycles of processing, then it probably helps our empathy because we can imagine life from other people's perspectives, but I'm not sure that feature is required in order to display empathy; the operation of our mirror neurons seems to occur also in other primates who appear to lack our inventiveness.

The truth is I don't really know, but I find the topic interesting. What about divine love? What do you think it means?

Thanks!
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22-05-2014, 07:29 AM
RE: About divine love
(22-05-2014 06:41 AM)living thing Wrote:  The truth is I don't really know, but I find the topic interesting. What about divine love? What do you think it means?

I think it means nothing without having defined 'divine'. Go ahead.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-05-2014, 08:07 AM
RE: About divine love
(22-05-2014 06:41 AM)living thing Wrote:  Hello again EvolutionKills, how are you? Thanks for coming back.

(22-05-2014 05:30 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I think they have some capacity for imagination, much as they certainly do for learning and remembrance.
I guess that might depend on what we understand by "imagination" and what animals we are talking about.

Certainly, I don't think I'd attribute this capacity to anything outside of mammals and some birds.

(22-05-2014 06:41 AM)living thing Wrote:  If imagination is the process by which the brain produces complex abstract notions by combining simpler ones and then feeds the result to itself, as if the notions had arrived through the senses, for subsequent cycles of processing, then it probably helps our empathy because we can imagine life from other people's perspectives, but I'm not sure that feature is required in order to display empathy; the operation of our mirror neurons seems to occur also in other primates who appear to lack our inventiveness.

We're not thinking of imagination in the same terms.

"Imagination, also called the faculty of imagining, is the ability to form new images and sensations that are not perceived through senses such as sight, hearing, or other senses. Imagination helps make knowledge applicable in solving problems and is fundamental to integrating experience and the learning process"
-Wikipedia

If a animal is capable of learning, it is capable of a very rudimentary imagination. I think that humans have a very well developed and complex imagination (Chimpanzees, as advanced and similar as they are, still are not composing symphonies or building the Hubble telescope). Pigeons have been shown to exhibit, for lack of a better term, superstitious behavior in controlled laboratory experiments. Food was dispensed into a pidgeon's cage at predetermined times, but after a time the pigeons were observed to be repeating the actions that they did right before the last time they were given food. The pigeons were exhibiting superstitious behavior, conceivably repeating actions that they perceived coincided with the arrival of food; even though those actions had no effect on the actual dispensing of the food.

Superstition in the Pigeon - B.F. Skinner


(22-05-2014 06:41 AM)living thing Wrote:  The truth is I don't really know, but I find the topic interesting. What about divine love? What do you think it means?

Thanks!

Anthropocentrism, projection, and ignorance run amok.

Anthropocentrism /ˌænθrɵpɵˈsɛntrɪzəm/ (from Greek: ἄνθρωπος, ánthrōpos, "human being"; and κέντρον, kéntron, "center") is the belief that human beings are the central or most significant species on the planet (in the sense that they are considered to have a moral status or value higher than that of other animals), or the assessment of reality through an exclusively human perspective.
-Wikipedia

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22-05-2014, 08:17 AM
RE: About divine love
(22-05-2014 03:48 AM)living thing Wrote:  
(22-05-2014 02:13 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  What if Yahweh already is shagging us... And we just don't realize it's happening?
Maybe, but I don't see how that would be possible.

What you're still caught up on that whole "not existing" thing? Let it go man, non of us believers care that he doesn't exist! Tongue

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