About divine love
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28-05-2014, 02:47 AM
RE: About divine love
(27-05-2014 10:27 PM)Alex_Leonardo Wrote:  .... However, I am open to the idea that a being or supreme being did create this universe, but It is entirely impossible that it is any human deity or any part of a human religion or that it should be worshiped or praised.
Well, that's my thoughts.
It may be that an abstract supreme being created the universe, but I find it very unlikely.

For one, because abstract information appears with the motion of real information; abstract entities need reality to exist in order for them to occur, and that dependency excludes the possibility of them occurring before reality existed.

Also, because energy (one of the main constituents of the universe; the only constituent according to some but not to me) does not at all give the impression of being creatable or destroyable. Likewise, if basic units of matter exist, they too are unlikely to be creatable or destroyable; it is arrangements of two or more what can begin existence upon their assembly and cease it upon their disassembly. And if the basic units of the universe (matter and change) are not creatable, then there is no room for a creator.

I find it more likely that the basic units of matter have always existed and always will, and that their motion and other forms of their change have always occurred and always will. But I may be wrong, so please don't take this as a claim that you're mistaken.

Do you have any thoughts about the topic under consideration (love as expressed by people who believe in deities)?

Thanks!
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28-05-2014, 02:50 AM
RE: About divine love
(27-05-2014 10:46 PM)kim Wrote:  Sorry man ... "that's what she said" ...used to be a running joke around here. No big whoop. Drinking Beverage
Oh, I see. I must confess I haven't dwelved into old threads.

No problem, thanks for the clarification!
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28-05-2014, 02:53 AM
RE: About divine love
(28-05-2014 02:32 AM)Dee Wrote:  Every time I see the title of this thread I get a vision of a flying, wings on his feet and back, naked cartoon baby cupid holding a little harp and a bow and arrow. Every time!

If I get nightmares, I'll let you know.
Yes That's a good point, I hadn't even thought of Cupid!

What a bastard, shooting arrows at people.
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28-05-2014, 03:30 AM
RE: About divine love
(28-05-2014 02:43 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(28-05-2014 02:20 AM)living thing Wrote:  Mental activity happens, of course, but it does not exist in the same sense as material structures exist.

Do you understand what I mean?

No. It's a distinction without a difference. It does "exist". They're all energy and patterns of energy.
May I ask what those quotation marks enclosing the word mean?

(28-05-2014 02:43 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(28-05-2014 02:20 AM)living thing Wrote:  Well I made it quite clear in my opening post that I'd like to know what other people understand by "love", especially those who declare some sort of jesuslike love

Then why bring up the gods of the ancient religions at all.
Because many believers today think they believe in the gods of ancient religions.

(28-05-2014 02:43 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  And most of all why ask this question in an atheist forum where the vast overwhelming majority of the members have no clue what you're talking about or share any such notions. You should be on a religious forum of some sort, apparently.
Well I won't tell you what you should do because, once again, it is none of my business how you spend your time. Can I please expect the same degree of respect from you?

I post my questions in this forum because I like engaging in conversations with people who are presumably not prone to believing stuff. But my question was initially sparked by this claim...
(21-05-2014 01:12 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Jesus would love you, as I do.
... from a different thread in this very forum. Why should I go elsewhere to look for theistic opinions?

(28-05-2014 02:43 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  TTA is not a forum for believers. It's the LAST place a reasonable person would be expecting to get an answer to these questions.
From the forum rules:
Quote:This forum isn't just for atheists. It is for anyone - no matter what race, religion, sex, sexual preference, or anything else. Anyone is welcome to participate and express their opinions.

(28-05-2014 02:43 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  In light of THAT, I (and others) assumed you might have been leading up to trying to preach at us. Maybe you're not.
You took "I'd say Yahweh probably wants to shag us. (Edit: it probably would if it weren't an imaginary entity in people's minds)" as possibly leading to me preaching at you?

Well I may preach about the advantages of mutual cooperation for the benefit of all humanity and life in general, but I'll be surprised if I ever proclaim religious sermons.

(28-05-2014 02:43 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(28-05-2014 02:20 AM)living thing Wrote:  For example, by posing the question in an online forum?
Composed of non-believers ?
Such as kingschosen?

(28-05-2014 02:43 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(28-05-2014 02:20 AM)living thing Wrote:  Is there anything else you'd like to add in relation to what believers in deities mean when they say they love others?
Thank you, have a good day.

Nope. Perhaps you might consider reading the title of the forum on which you post your questions. Woulds you go to Catholic Answers to ask questions about what atheists/agnostics/igtheists think?
Thanks for the suggestion, but what makes you think I haven't read it? I do not believe in the existence of any deities and I enjoy thinking, is this forum not appropriate for me to post my thoughts?

Thanks again for taking the time to expand your view, although I don't think it has added anything to the topic under consideration.

Have fun!
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28-05-2014, 03:37 AM
RE: About divine love
(28-05-2014 02:25 AM)living thing Wrote:  Hello again, EvolutionKills. How's it going?

(27-05-2014 10:07 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  The second one. 'Divine Love' is narcissistic and born from both our ignorance and either our inability or unwillingness to see reality as not caring about us. There is no goal, we were not created in any god's image or for any god's plan. We are the end result of billions of years of deterministic, unthinking, and unguided fundamental forces of nature. Reality was not created for our benefit, nor will it mourn our inevitable passing. The only meaning our brief existence has is that which we give ourselves.
I mostly agree with you, especially if we think of "meaning" as a synonym for "purpose". But I'd like to point out that I don't think of meaning as purpose; I view it as a set of implications conveyed by some form of information. And as such, our brief existence has plenty of meaning.

But I very much agree with your view, thanks for sharing it.

Have fun!

Of course our existence has meaning as far as we are concerned, it's meaning however is not an intrinsic aspect of reality nor is it derived from any deity. 'Meaning' is only a meaningful concept to conscious creatures. A universe filled with nothing but rocks would have nothing in it to give meaning to anything. The concept of 'meaning' is likewise inapplicable to a fork; we may place meaning onto the object or with the name and concept of a 'fork', but meaning doesn't mean anything to the fork itself because the fork lacks a sense of self. A fork lacks the means to apply, utilize, create, interpret, remember, or appreciate 'meaning'.

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28-05-2014, 04:32 AM (This post was last modified: 28-05-2014 04:39 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: About divine love
(28-05-2014 02:20 AM)living thing Wrote:  Because many believers today think they believe in the gods of ancient religions.

So you DO want to discuss the ancient gods. First you say you don't now you say you do. Which is it ?

(28-05-2014 02:20 AM)living thing Wrote:  Can I please expect the same degree of respect from you?
I post my questions in this forum because I like engaging in conversations with people who are presumably not prone to believing stuff. But my question was initially sparked by this claim...This forum isn't just for atheists. It is for anyone - no matter what race, religion, sex, sexual preference, or anything else. Anyone is welcome to participate and express their opinions.

I know the damn forum rules. This is not about rules. It's about ... oh fucking never mind.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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28-05-2014, 04:48 AM
RE: About divine love
(28-05-2014 04:32 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(28-05-2014 02:20 AM)living thing Wrote:  Because many believers today think they believe in the gods of ancient religions.

So you DO want to discuss the ancient gods. First you say you don't now you say you do. Which is it ?

The Yahweh Sabaoth worshiped by the ancient Israelites of Judea is not the same 'god' concept being worshiped by your typical modern Christian, even though we can trace the evolution of that god's concept back to that ancient, Iron Age, regional, desert, war deity.

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28-05-2014, 07:58 AM (This post was last modified: 28-05-2014 11:12 AM by Chas.)
RE: About divine love
(28-05-2014 02:47 AM)living thing Wrote:  For one, because abstract information appears with the motion of real information; abstract entities need reality to exist in order for them to occur, and that dependency excludes the possibility of them occurring before reality existed.

Abstract entities need a conscious mind for them to exist. And then, they only exist in those minds - they don't 'exist' in your definition.

Quote:Also, because energy (one of the main constituents of the universe; the only constituent according to some but not to me) does not at all give the impression of being creatable or destroyable. Likewise, if basic units of matter exist, they too are unlikely to be creatable or destroyable; it is arrangements of two or more what can begin existence upon their assembly and cease it upon their disassembly. And if the basic units of the universe (matter and change) are not creatable, then there is no room for a creator.

Mass and energy are interconvertible, so they are essentially one and the same. So I am not sure why you differentiate them in this context.

Quote:I find it more likely that the basic units of matter have always existed and always will, and that their motion and other forms of their change have always occurred and always will. But I may be wrong, so please don't take this as a claim that you're mistaken.

According to Big Bang theory, in the beginning there was only energy, so matter in our universe has not always existed.

Quote:Do you have any thoughts about the topic under consideration (love as expressed by people who believe in deities)?

Thanks!

When did that become the topic? That wasn't what your OP asked.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-05-2014, 09:53 AM
RE: About divine love
(21-05-2014 03:20 PM)living thing Wrote:  I've been reading 21 pages of a very disappointing thread where some christian guy "addressed" statements with questions, rather than addressing questions with statements. At some point, the guy has declared some sort of jesuslike love and that's made me wonder... what does he mean by "love"?

Well... to get what he means by love, you'd have to ask him. Not only is love different for each and every person... that guy is using it... it's a hook. The Jesus guy was a fisher of men...

Love is a universal, subjective, intangible which the faithful conflate with their subjective intangible god thingy. I personally don't mind if they do that for themselves... they need to convince themselves anyway they can, I guess.

However, when a theist uses this as a technique to get people to "accept" the notion of "possibility" ... you can't touch, smell, taste, hear, see LOVE ... and yet, you can not deny it. Love is the gateway drug to heroin god. Get em hooked on what they can readily accept ... before long, they'll overlook reason ... they'll let logic and sense slide... they'll stop thinking.

(21-05-2014 03:20 PM)living thing Wrote:  I'd like to know what other people understand by "love" but meanwhile I can describe the notion I attach to the word, based on my own experience and my observations of other living things around me, so it might just be a load of bullshit.

Me? I think, therefore, I am and I love.
I love. For absolutely no reason whatsoever.
I do not know why that is difficult for some people to understand. Drinking Beverage

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28-05-2014, 10:30 AM
RE: About divine love
(28-05-2014 04:32 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(28-05-2014 03:30 AM)living thing Wrote:  
(28-05-2014 02:43 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(28-05-2014 02:20 AM)living thing Wrote:  Well I made it quite clear in my opening post that I'd like to know what other people understand by "love", especially those who declare some sort of jesuslike love
Then why bring up the gods of the ancient religions at all.
Because many believers today think they believe in the gods of ancient religions.
So you DO want to discuss the ancient gods.
No, I don’t; it is you who seems to be fixated with that point. I’ve provided an answer to a direct question out of common courtesy, but I’ve said “many believers today”; I am interested in knowing present-day believers’ understanding of the notion of love. You may, of course, contribute to this thread with whatever you like, but that does not mean I will remain indefinitely interested in your contributions, because you keep extending a pointless and completely off-topic argument.

(28-05-2014 04:32 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  First you say you don't now you say you do. Which is it ?
I haven’t said I do; in fact, I’ve said I don’t. You are mistaking my willingness to spend time answering your questions for my hypothetical desire to engage in a pointless and completely off-topic argument.

(28-05-2014 04:32 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(28-05-2014 02:20 AM)living thing Wrote:  Can I please expect the same degree of respect from you?
I post my questions in this forum because I like engaging in conversations with people who are presumably not prone to believing stuff. But my question was initially sparked by this claim...This forum isn't just for atheists. It is for anyone - no matter what race, religion, sex, sexual preference, or anything else. Anyone is welcome to participate and express their opinions.
I know the damn forum rules.
Oh, you do? So your claim that this forum is not for believers was not an accidental mistake, but a deliberate attempt to support your position on false notions? I’m not really sure I want to engage in any kind of conversation with you.

(28-05-2014 04:32 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  This is not about rules. It's about ... oh fucking never mind.
Exactly, never mind. I know this is not about rules, this is about the meaning believers in deities attach to the word “love” when they claim they love like their deity does. Extending a pointless and completely off-topic argument is pointless and completely off-topic, and you do not have any obligation to keep posting to this thread.

That is why I thank you for your voluntary contributions to this thread, even though I don’t think they are adding any useful information in relation to the topic under consideration. Please feel free to contribute any further, but don’t be surprised if I do not reply to your contributions.

Meanwhile, have a great time!
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