About divine love
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 1 Votes - 1 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
28-05-2014, 10:39 AM
RE: About divine love
(28-05-2014 09:53 AM)kim Wrote:  I love. For absolutely no reason whatsoever.
Well, I love that you love; if people loved others with the same intensity with which they sometimes seem to hate each other, human life would probably be much more pleasurable.

But I think "absolutely no reason" is a little excessive, don't you agree? The main reason why you love is because you have a complex arrangement of cells and cellular processes in your nervous system that cause you to feel such emotion when you encounter a wide range of stimuli; I wouldn't say that you love for absolutely no reason.

Other than that, I find your perspective very interesting. Thanks for sharing it with us.

Have fun!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-05-2014, 10:57 AM
RE: About divine love
The word love - used in so many ways for so many things.

I love myself.

I love some of my friends.

I love my dogs and other pets.

I love my husband (and he is dead so doesn't actually exist anymore, but yet I love him).

I love to watch the fish in my aquarium, although I am not sure whether I actually love the actual fish.

I love chocolate.

I love dusk and dawn.

I love the color green.

Each of the above is an entirely different feeling.

Perhaps love is when you like something enough to go to some extent to experience it. Risking your life in order to save your kid is on one end of the spectrum and choosing the green blouse is on the other.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Dom's post
28-05-2014, 11:37 AM
RE: About divine love
(28-05-2014 10:39 AM)living thing Wrote:  But I think "absolutely no reason" is a little excessive, don't you agree?
No. I don't agree. It is the answer I gave you about me... and I provided it to you only because you asked.

(28-05-2014 10:39 AM)living thing Wrote:  The main reason why you love is because you have a complex arrangement of cells and cellular processes in your nervous system that cause you to feel such emotion when you encounter a wide range of stimuli; I wouldn't say that you love for absolutely no reason.

YOU wouldn't say that I love for absolutely no reason. But that's just YOU at this moment. You overestimate your own reasoning of something completely beyond your reconning. In other words; any explanation of yours can never come close to anything I think or feel.

If you were to say, "I wouldn't say that I love for absolutely no reason..." and then proceed to explain a complex arrangement of cells and cellular processes etc.,... or whatever your reasoning is that YOU love, then that would be just fine. But you inquired why OTHER people do something ... or... are you now changing your inquiry to something else?

In MY estimation of YOUR explanation of why I love... you have tried to cheapened my reply. For that, you might be considered a dick. But maybe that's just me.

Ask people what you want to know and stop trying to tell them what to think and feel. Drinking Beverage

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes kim's post
28-05-2014, 12:09 PM
RE: About divine love
Hello Dom, welcome to this thread. How are you doing? I am sorry to read about the loss of your husband, but I’m glad he’s still somewhat alive in your emotions and your memories.

Thank you for a very illustrative description of your understanding of a complex notion, it is very helpful. I think I see how each point has its differences in relation to the rest, although I’m not sure they are entirely different. Would you mind if I group them and slightly rearrange them in order to write a few remarks? I’m not trying to change the meaning of your words, but please correct me if I unwittingly do, or if I have misunderstood your words altogether.

(28-05-2014 10:57 AM)Dom Wrote:  I love myself.
Hands on the table! Big Grin Just kidding, when I think of self-love, I generally don’t think of masturbation but of putting one’s own interests before those of others; survival instinct, if you will. Do you mean anything similar?

(28-05-2014 10:57 AM)Dom Wrote:  I love some of my friends.

I love my dogs and other pets.
Would you say that when you love some of your friends, your dogs and other pets, you are putting their interests before your own? I don’t know, maybe putting your plans for the night down in order to entertain and/or take care of the children of a friend who unexpectedly needs a baby-sitter; or maybe if you take your dogs for a good walk even though you’re tired after a long working day, just because your dogs need to go for a good walk.

Together with the notion of self-love mentioned above, I would say this concept of love means concentrating one’s efforts in solving some living being’s needs (be it oneself, a friend, a dog or other pet…) Would you agree with this idea?

(28-05-2014 10:57 AM)Dom Wrote:  I love to watch the fish in my aquarium, although I am not sure whether I actually love the actual fish.

I love chocolate.

I love dusk and dawn.

I love the color green.
I’d say you get pleasure from all those sensory experiences; from the relaxation your mind may gain by watching the little things move through the water, even though you don’t really care that much about the actual little things (at least, you care less for them than you probably care for your dogs); from presumably eating and possibly smelling chocolate; from experiencing sunrises and sunsets (visually, thermically or whatever); from observing green things.

In my subjective and possibly mistaken opinion, the things and experiences that we love most are often those that give us most pleasure.

(28-05-2014 10:57 AM)Dom Wrote:  I love my husband (and he is dead so doesn't actually exist anymore, but yet I love him).
I’ve placed the love for your husband apart because it may fall in both previous groups; sharing your life with him probably was a great source of pleasurable experiences beyond sex, even if it may have at times been a source of displeasures (I don’t know, I’m only guessing here) but it is also likely that you often put his interests before your own, simply out of the pleasure you gained from your relationship. You probably loved him in many ways and even though he is now part of your memories, you still get pleasure from remembering him when he was alive. Is that more or less the case?

(28-05-2014 10:57 AM)Dom Wrote:  Perhaps love is when you like something enough to go to some extent to experience it. Risking your life in order to save your kid is on one end of the spectrum and choosing the green blouse is on the other.
I think risking our lives to save our kids may be beneficial for our genes in the kids. If we die saving our kids it may not be that relevant for our genes (as long as someone else will take care of our kids while they’re not self-sufficient), because we have already had kids who share most of our genes, and our kids still have the chance to extend the living cycle one iteration forward. I wouldn’t be surprised if this behaviour (our brains rewarding themselves with pleasure whenever we experience our children develop, so that we will put their interests before our own) reflected the survival instinct of our genes rather than that of our brains.

Similarly, the pleasure you feel by looking at green stuff might derive from an ancient selective pressure upon genes producing animals attracted to patches of green vegetation, where food is likely to be found. In the end of the day, we seem to be machines for the propagation of our genes. Or maybe we’re worshipping slaves, who can say they truly know?

Thanks again for your view. Enjoy your day!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-05-2014, 12:21 PM
RE: About divine love
I am sorry if I have offended you, kim. It was certainly not my intention.

I wasn't trying to cheapen your view and, in fact, I liked it so much that I declared how I loved it. I was simply trying to point out that there are many reasons for you to love, and the main one is that you are alive (although I unfortunately didn't think of it when I wrote my previous answer to you). If you weren't alive, you wouldn't love anything.

Other than that, if you think I am telling other people what to think or feel you may be ignoring my constant references to my own opinion. I describe what I think and what I feel; other people's thoughts and feelings are for their brains to elaborate and experience.

I thank you for your clarifications and reiterate my apologies, and I hope that you will have fun and love as much as you can for no particular reason; there is enough hate going on and the planet could always do with more love.

Have a great day!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-05-2014, 12:57 PM
RE: About divine love
(28-05-2014 12:09 PM)living thing Wrote:  Hello Dom, welcome to this thread. How are you doing? I am sorry to read about the loss of your husband, but I’m glad he’s still somewhat alive in your emotions and your memories.

Thank you for a very illustrative description of your understanding of a complex notion, it is very helpful. I think I see how each point has its differences in relation to the rest, although I’m not sure they are entirely different. Would you mind if I group them and slightly rearrange them in order to write a few remarks? I’m not trying to change the meaning of your words, but please correct me if I unwittingly do, or if I have misunderstood your words altogether.

(28-05-2014 10:57 AM)Dom Wrote:  I love myself.
Hands on the table! Big Grin Just kidding, when I think of self-love, I generally don’t think of masturbation but of putting one’s own interests before those of others; survival instinct, if you will. Do you mean anything similar?

(28-05-2014 10:57 AM)Dom Wrote:  I love some of my friends.

I love my dogs and other pets.
Would you say that when you love some of your friends, your dogs and other pets, you are putting their interests before your own? I don’t know, maybe putting your plans for the night down in order to entertain and/or take care of the children of a friend who unexpectedly needs a baby-sitter; or maybe if you take your dogs for a good walk even though you’re tired after a long working day, just because your dogs need to go for a good walk.

Together with the notion of self-love mentioned above, I would say this concept of love means concentrating one’s efforts in solving some living being’s needs (be it oneself, a friend, a dog or other pet…) Would you agree with this idea?

(28-05-2014 10:57 AM)Dom Wrote:  I love to watch the fish in my aquarium, although I am not sure whether I actually love the actual fish.

I love chocolate.

I love dusk and dawn.

I love the color green.
I’d say you get pleasure from all those sensory experiences; from the relaxation your mind may gain by watching the little things move through the water, even though you don’t really care that much about the actual little things (at least, you care less for them than you probably care for your dogs); from presumably eating and possibly smelling chocolate; from experiencing sunrises and sunsets (visually, thermically or whatever); from observing green things.

In my subjective and possibly mistaken opinion, the things and experiences that we love most are often those that give us most pleasure.

(28-05-2014 10:57 AM)Dom Wrote:  I love my husband (and he is dead so doesn't actually exist anymore, but yet I love him).
I’ve placed the love for your husband apart because it may fall in both previous groups; sharing your life with him probably was a great source of pleasurable experiences beyond sex, even if it may have at times been a source of displeasures (I don’t know, I’m only guessing here) but it is also likely that you often put his interests before your own, simply out of the pleasure you gained from your relationship. You probably loved him in many ways and even though he is now part of your memories, you still get pleasure from remembering him when he was alive. Is that more or less the case?

(28-05-2014 10:57 AM)Dom Wrote:  Perhaps love is when you like something enough to go to some extent to experience it. Risking your life in order to save your kid is on one end of the spectrum and choosing the green blouse is on the other.
I think risking our lives to save our kids may be beneficial for our genes in the kids. If we die saving our kids it may not be that relevant for our genes (as long as someone else will take care of our kids while they’re not self-sufficient), because we have already had kids who share most of our genes, and our kids still have the chance to extend the living cycle one iteration forward. I wouldn’t be surprised if this behaviour (our brains rewarding themselves with pleasure whenever we experience our children develop, so that we will put their interests before our own) reflected the survival instinct of our genes rather than that of our brains.

Similarly, the pleasure you feel by looking at green stuff might derive from an ancient selective pressure upon genes producing animals attracted to patches of green vegetation, where food is likely to be found. In the end of the day, we seem to be machines for the propagation of our genes. Or maybe we’re worshipping slaves, who can say they truly know?

Thanks again for your view. Enjoy your day!

The order I had it in is the currently existing strength of these feelings.

This changes over time, my husband slipped after dying, very, very gradually. But after many years of being together, he is firmly engraved in my brain. Its not about happy memories, it's a bitter sweet feeling at the time. I understand in a decade or two I will have mostly the good memories left, and the grieving will have stopped. But it's not as simple as people think, you don't have grief for a year and then sweet memories. That's just as much bull as saying he's sitting on a cloud playing the harp. After you spend a long time with someone, you two become a fine tuned machine working together. At least that is the way we were. The machine hasn't stopped running because he died, just that there is no additional fuel coming from him. This whole death and grieving business is very strange indeed.

Loving myself means spoiling myself in whatever ways I like. Pleasing myself. Doing things I enjoy, giving myself priority. I am young enough to be able to enjoy many things, and old enough to be free of sacrificing much of my time for other people or for work. It's a good space to be in, as far as life's journey goes. And yes, it includes pleasuring myself. Tongue

Friends and pets - well, in my generation nobody has any kids anymore Smile But yeah, we'll take care of each other in various ways. And yes, I will do for my pets. But with friends and pets it's more of a give and take, tit for tat kind of thing. It's a support system.

Aquarium, chocolate, dusk and dawn and the color green - just evoke a pleasant feeling. Well, of course, there is that chocolate is the only truly divine thing in life! Smile So there is your "divine love". Tongue

All emotions come from the same place, not just love. They are all based on instinct, chemicals and unconscious thought processes. But they also enter the realm of conscious choices and can be accepted or rejected by you. I may feel drawn to a certain person, but if s/he acts like an ass, s/he is going to get kicked to the curb.

I have never had an instinct to procreate, so the gene preservation thing doesn't come into play with me. But I might risk my life to save someone in a split second decision - so there is the preservation of the species instinct, too.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Dom's post
28-05-2014, 01:15 PM
RE: About divine love
(28-05-2014 12:57 PM)Dom Wrote:  chocolate is the only truly divine thing in life! Smile So there is your "divine love". Tongue
Bowing I've said in this thread that I don't worship anything, but some times an exception is appropriate. I love plays on words.

I cannot relate to every notion you've described because I have not been through the same experiences you have, but i do know people who have experienced circumstances that I deem similar, and what they say is similar to what you describe.

I think I agree with you in more than one way (even though there are experiences I enjoy more than chocolate), and the original ordering of your points is very interesting, I hadn't thought of it; thanks for pointing it out. Yeah, I love myself more than I love my favourite colour. In fact, I'm not sure I have a strong preference when it comes to colours; I think it may depend on the context in which I find them.

Thanks once again for a great post. Have fun, and have pleasure!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-05-2014, 01:24 PM (This post was last modified: 28-05-2014 11:00 PM by kim.)
RE: About divine love
(28-05-2014 12:21 PM)living thing Wrote:  I am sorry if I have offended you, kim. It was certainly not my intention.
No apology necessary - I'm not offended.

(28-05-2014 12:21 PM)living thing Wrote:  I wasn't trying to cheapen your view and, in fact, I liked it so much that I declared how I loved it. I was simply trying to point out that there are many reasons for you to love, and the main one is that you are alive (although I unfortunately didn't think of it when I wrote my previous answer to you).

I think you may not have entirely understood what I meant. To me, there doesn't have to be any reason to love. Love is often unconditional. Love is often unaffected by reason or logic. Love can also be troubled and conflicted and quite confused - it may not always be a positive thing - the growth of love can be a painful experience, often bittersweet... but still love.

(28-05-2014 12:21 PM)living thing Wrote:  If you weren't alive, you wouldn't love anything.
Yes, life is the one aspect in which humanity is united to experience.

(28-05-2014 12:21 PM)living thing Wrote:  Other than that, if you think I am telling other people what to think or feel you may be ignoring my constant references to my own opinion. I describe what I think and what I feel; other people's thoughts and feelings are for their brains to elaborate and experience.

Hmm... could be I feel a bit of sensitivity concerning manipulation.... sorry 'bout that... I may have felt that some of your statements may have been leading - I think Bucky felt this as well - at least that's what I gathered from his reaction. It's not a big deal - we haven't interacted much - we don't really know you.

I think that a few theists come here asking somewhat similar questions with the intention of leading to some purposeful statement which supports some argument they have already devised an answer to ... usually something about god, no doubt. My turn to apologize if my "radar" detected a similar sneakiness on your part. Wink

(28-05-2014 12:21 PM)living thing Wrote:  I thank you for your clarifications and reiterate my apologies, and I hope that you will have fun and love as much as you can for no particular reason; there is enough hate going on and the planet could always do with more love.

Again, no apology necessary. I agree... there is too much hate. It's possible I love for no reason because the single human experience even more illogical, more unreasonable than love, is hate. But hate always seems to have a reason - the reason most always involves fear.

Love needs no reason... at least, no reason or logic I feel any need to attach to it. Love is as good as it gets. Drinking Beverage

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-05-2014, 04:22 PM
RE: About divine love
Hello again, kim, I’m glad you weren’t offended.

(28-05-2014 01:24 PM)kim Wrote:  I think you may not have entirely understood what I meant. To me, there doesn't have to be any reason to love. Love is often unconditional. Love is often unaffected by reason or logic. Love can also be troubled and conflicted and quite confused - it may not always be a positive thing - the growth of love can be a painful experience, often bittersweet... but still love.
Thanks for a helpful clarification, I’m sorry if I misunderstood your words, and also if I chose mine inadequately (please don’t forget that English is not my native language). When I used the word “reason”, I had the notion of a cause in mind, but I think I now see how you were referring to… well, reason.

And if I have understood you correctly this time, I mostly agree; love is much more of an emotional reaction than it is a logical one. But, and I hope you will not view this as my desire to be a dick, even then love is not exclusively illogical because logic operations happen in our nervous systems well below our consciousness. For instance, some neurons cease firing whenever an adjacent nerve cell fires; they are acting as a logic inverter. Other neurons fire when a set of adjacent cells are fired, thus acting as a logic AND gate. Yet other neurons fire when any one in a set of adjacent cells are fired; those act as logic OR gates. More complex neural pathways achieve more complex logic operations, but the point to be made is that these operations occur, for example, between our retinas and our optic nerves; well before the information is sent to be processed emotionally and/or logically.

But I’m talking about causes and not reasons, this is not a manifestation of disagreement.

(28-05-2014 01:24 PM)kim Wrote:  life is the one aspect in which humanity is united to experience.
Would that be extensible to non-human living beings? Otherwise, I’m not sure I understand what you mean.

(28-05-2014 01:24 PM)kim Wrote:  Hmm... could be I feel a bit of sensitivity concerning manipulation.... sorry 'bout that... I may have felt that some of your statements may have been leading - I think Bucky felt this as well - at least that's what I gathered from his reaction. It's not a big deal - we haven't interacted much - we don't really know you.

I think that a few theists come here asking somewhat similar questions with the intention of leading to some purposeful statement which supports some argument they have already devised an answer to ... usually something about god, no doubt. My turn to apologize if my "radar" detected a similar sneakiness on your part. Wink
Please let me assure you that if I could manipulate people into doing anything, I’d try to make them help each other for the benefit of all, but in order for me to manipulate anyone I would first need to make myself understood, and I’m not sure I can manage even that.

I think humanity has the potential to behave like a super-organism capable of feats much greater than our own, but only if we all cooperate in the task of keeping humanity alive, just like our cells cooperate in the task of keeping ourselves alive; that is why I promote our mutual cooperation. Not because I think we have the obligation to cooperate for the benefit of humanity (and life in general; humanity could be the thing that exports life from this planet before this planet becomes inhospitable) but because I find we have the lucky opportunity to do so. We have the chance to help life avoid the inexorable fate that awaits in our nearest star, if another asteroid or whatever else doesn’t fuck it all up sooner.

I wish the typical relationship among human beings were of mutual cooperation and respect, I wish we drove our efforts towards providing others with pleasure and not towards inflicting pain, but my wishes are no one’s command; people may choose to compete for the greatness of their gods, their countries, their companies, the companies they consume from… in all, people may choose to compete for their own greatness; living beings do not need my permission to do stuff. I find it stupid, but other people’s behaviour is their choice not mine.

I have explained many times already how I do not believe in deities, and how there is no room in my view for a creator; if anyone is expecting some theistic preaching disguised in my words, I am afraid I will disappoint them. Let me please emphasize this: even though I concede that I may be wrong, because that is a notion that I always try to keep in mind, I think the idea of a creator/legislator of the universe is bollocks.

But I feel I am being judged based upon the behaviour of people who are not me and which I cannot nor wish to control; if other people deliver religious messages in this forum, that has nothing to do with me. I would expect that kind of prejudice coming from users in a religious forum, where few people seem to see anything beyond the ideology they embrace, but I am a little disappointed to find it here. If there is a lesson I can learn from this, it is “don’t judge anyone based on their opinion until you know what their opinion is”, and by “you” I mean myself.

(28-05-2014 01:24 PM)kim Wrote:  Again, no apology necessary. I agree... there is too much hate. It's possible I love for no reason because the single human experience even more illogical, more unreasonable than love, is hate. But hate always seem to have a reason - the reason most always involves fear.

Love needs no reason... at least, no reason or logic I feel any need to attach to it. Love is as good as it gets. Drinking Beverage
And even if there were reasons for loving, I’d say any reason for loving is good! Although I haven’t really thought that last bit very deeply; I’m open to be shown bad reasons for loving, if there is such a thing.

I hope you don’t mind if my view is different from yours. I don’t think they are mutually exclusive views, or one better than the other; we just seem to pay attention to different details of the universe we experience around us. And that is great, because it broadens the span covered by our views if combined.

I thank you for your patience, and once again for your contributions to this thread. Please don’t let me tell you what you should do, but do have a great day!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes living thing's post
28-05-2014, 04:42 PM
RE: About divine love
I do see what Kim means.

You don't act like the rest of the heathens here. Smile

May I ask what your profession is?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Dom's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: