About special pleadings.
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03-10-2014, 06:16 AM
RE: About special pleadings.
(02-10-2014 11:01 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  A special pleading occurs when someone attempts to cite an exception to a generally accepted rule without any justification.

No, special pleading is more of a double standard. You start with a rule and then demand an exception to the rule with a spurious reason.


(02-10-2014 11:01 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  For instance consider the following rule. Everything that comes into existence must have a cause.

If you go on to claim that the universe came into existence, but had no cause....then you are making a special pleading if you do not justify why it is an exception to the rule, Everything that comes into existence must have a cause.

When a theist claims that God is un-caused it is not a special pleading. Why? Because the rule applies to those things which come into existence. An eternal God is something that does not come into existence and therefore is not governed by the rule, Everything that comes into existence must have a cause
.

When I see special pleading invoked in the cosmological argument, it tends to take this form:

Theist: Everything that exists has a cause, therefore, the universe must have a cause. (This universal rule is the basis for the argument.)

Skeptic: What caused the initial cause?

Theist: It had no cause.

Skeptic: That's special pleading. (The theist demanded an exception to their universal rule, undoing it.)

Theist: The cause is God, and he's eternal, so he is uncaused. (It's a matter of debate whether or not the justification for this exception is spurious.)


That being said, simply hand-waving the problem away by calling the cause "eternal" or "timeless" doesn't really solve the problem. Sure, it explains the problem away in a theistic-compatible view, but it also leaves other doors open, too. For example, it now leaves the possibility of an uncaused, eternal universe to exist.
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03-10-2014, 06:43 AM (This post was last modified: 03-10-2014 08:20 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: About special pleadings.
(02-10-2014 11:07 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(02-10-2014 11:07 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  Right. It is not special pleading.....it is just fucking stupid, Woodie.

Too many atheists here cry special pleading when there is none. The point of this thread is to educate people on what a special pleading is.

Oh look.
The one who claimed Mycoplasma laboratorium was some form of "new lineage of life" thinks he needs to "educate" us.
Will the hilarity emanating from Blowjob's ass-brain ever cease ?

(02-10-2014 11:07 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If you go on to claim that the universe came into existence, but had no cause....then you are making a special pleading if you do not justify why it is an exception to the rule, Everything that comes into existence must have a cause.

1. There is no such "rule" thus there can be no exception to it.
2. The "initial conditions" (premises/assumptions) have to be at least similar, if the "rule" is to apply, (if there were one). They aren't. "Causes" require time.
Rules that apply to "inside" this universe cannot be assumed to apply to what is external.

So sad. Too bad.
Blowjob loses yet again.
(But thanks for the "education"). Weeping

And just in case you think you have a leg to stand on, you can listen to Dr. Sean Carroll "educate" the idiot WLC on the very same point.




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03-10-2014, 07:27 AM
RE: About special pleadings.
How do you know everything that comes into existence has a cause?

Everything in the universe is made of different arrangements of the same building blocks... The only time in the universe's history (that I'm aware of) that anything has come into existence is the Big Bang.

Everything came into existence at that point...

So my point is, as far as I'm aware, nobody has ever witnessed the creation of matter or energy... Only rearrangements of what's already here. So how do you know matter requires a creator?

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03-10-2014, 07:31 AM
RE: About special pleadings.
(02-10-2014 11:48 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  You don't have to accept the rule. bla bla bla

I think the reason so many of you atheists cry out the platitude, "Oh the theists made a special pleading".....is because you are using one rule and the the theist is using the another. If your going to call out someone for making a logical fallacy....at least be right about it. Show the rule the theist is using, and then show how he is making an exception to it without justification.

Very few here "cry out" platitudes, BJ. Theists claim they have a "rule", ("everything that exists has a cause") and argue from it. YOU claim your rule applies. It doesn't. (And as long as we're being "educated" here, it's "if you're", not "if your").

Alrighty then. Have a sucky day, Blowme. Thumbsup

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03-10-2014, 07:44 AM
RE: About special pleadings.
I've yet to find anyone repeating such vacuously ill-constructed nonsense as "everything that begins to exist has a cause" without then being totally unable to coherently define "everything", "begin", "exist", and "cause"...

Protip: the cosmological argument is an idiotic failure pile.

But ol' HJ here is just trollin' for trollin's sake. I really wonder what he expects to accomplish.

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03-10-2014, 07:47 AM
RE: About special pleadings.
(02-10-2014 11:01 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  A special pleading occurs when someone attempts to cite an exception to a generally accepted rule without any justification.

For instance consider the following rule. Everything that comes into existence must have a cause.

If you go on to claim that the universe came into existence, but had no cause....then you are making a special pleading if you do not justify why it is an exception to the rule, Everything that comes into existence must have a cause.

When a theist claims that God is un-caused it is not a special pleading. Why? Because the rule applies to those things which come into existence. An eternal God is something that does not come into existence and therefore is not governed by the rule, Everything that comes into existence must have a cause
.

If you argue that the universe is something which always existed. It is not a special pleading to then go on to claim the Universe was un-caused.
Yes it is actually. When the argument is made that everything has to have a cause then that includes the creator of the universe.

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03-10-2014, 08:50 AM
RE: About special pleadings.
(02-10-2014 11:28 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  1. The universe has never always been around
Ohmy
You're just messing with us because it's Friday right? Tongue

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03-10-2014, 09:04 AM
RE: About special pleadings.
(03-10-2014 12:00 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(02-10-2014 11:56 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Yes....That's why I eliminated the word "rule" because it's his assertion or another special pleading. Shocking

An assertion is not a special pleading. I'm convinced now that you do not know what a special pleading is. Please read my post in this this thread closely and educate yourself.

The word "rule" is important because a special pleading is citing an exception to a rule or principle without justification. 2 elements are necessary for a special pleading....the rule and the unjustified exception to the rule.
Mom said the word "rule" makes it another special pleading and therefore she removed it. So she understood that you were saying that a rule is necessary for special pleading. You then go on to say she doesn't know what she is talking about because the rule is necessary for special pleading. Facepalm

And if that wasn't enough...

(03-10-2014 12:18 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  ---
please note that a premise(rule or principle) is not a special pleading. The special pleading occurs when the conclusion of an argument is an unjustified exception to the rule, principle or premise that was utilized to make the argument.

Do you even know what you believe? You sway like the trees in the wind. Dodgy

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03-10-2014, 09:12 AM
RE: About special pleadings.
(03-10-2014 06:16 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  When I see special pleading invoked in the cosmological argument, it tends to take this form:

Theist: Everything that exists has a cause, therefore, the universe must have a cause. (This universal rule is the basis for the argument.)

Skeptic: What caused the initial cause?

Theist: It had no cause.

Skeptic: That's special pleading. (The theist demanded an exception to their universal rule, undoing it.)

Theist: The cause is God, and he's eternal, so he is uncaused. (It's a matter of debate whether or not the justification for this exception is spurious.)


That being said, simply hand-waving the problem away by calling the cause "eternal" or "timeless" doesn't really solve the problem. Sure, it explains the problem away in a theistic-compatible view, but it also leaves other doors open, too. For example, it now leaves the possibility of an uncaused, eternal universe to exist.

I'm not arguing that the cosmological argument is a persuasive argument. I am only using it as an example of what is and what isn't a special pleading.
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03-10-2014, 09:18 AM
RE: About special pleadings.
(03-10-2014 07:27 AM)Sam Wrote:  How do you know everything that comes into existence has a cause?

Sam, what you are doing here is dismissing an argument because you do not agree with one of its premises. There is nothing wrong with dismissing an argument on the basis of a faulty premise.....just remember a faulty premise is not a special pleading.
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