About suicide and death
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06-07-2016, 05:07 PM
About suicide and death
I just read Vosur's post "A moment of reflection" and you know how sometimes you mind jumps from here to there, so my mind jumped.
At this point I realize (Just re-read and amended bits and pieces of the text below) that I really just needed to say all of this. If feels good to have this place where I can let my mind go on this topic because in RL I have no one to really talk it all out with.

Before I continue, I want to make very clear that I am not suicidal. I am at reasonable peace with myself.
But if you get triggered easily by talk about suicide and/or death, I recommend you skip this thread.

Wall of text coming in:

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My first ever suicidal thoughts, before I even knew what suicide is, were probably at about 8 or 9 years old where I started to seriously consider ways of dieing without my family feeling hurt or sad about it. I have stayed on this level of suicidal for most of my childhood and teenage years as well as young adulthood.
I had a phase of a few years, from about 21 to about 24 or so, where the occasional suicidal thoughts became so much that I became highly suicidal. At the time, all I could think off was suicide and I had already started planning on how to make sure that my pets will all be taken care of once I am gone etc. I had serious plans at that point. I was sitting with a knife daily (at the time I had no better or less painful ideas really).
While the therapies at the day clinic, that I had now started going to, didn't really help me directly, they did give me time away from work and away from most worries and therefore a save place to think and start to work out the reasons for my mental state.
Over time, and even after I left the clinic, I got better and better up to now where I am absolutely fine most of the time.

Now my mom, she has been battling depression for a long time as well. And there were times, even when I was a young teenager, when she was talking about suicide.
Something that had been weighing down on me for a long time was how she always mentioned that if I weren't around, she wouldn't have a reason to live. So on many occasions, I felt very trapped. Scared to move out from her house because she might kill herself.
Scared to shut off contact for a while (while I was figuring out my own issues) because she might kill herself.
Scared to follow my dream of moving to another country because she might kill herself. (sidenote: I left the country seven, almost eight years ago)
A lot of things that I postponed or didn't do because of the fear of her committing suicide and me being the reason.

I remember a time, after I left the country, where I was unable to reach her at all, and I reached out to X people until at some point one of my brothers contacted me to tell me that she was in hospital battling for life because she had something that required surgery plus other issues. For those whole 4+ weeks I was worried sick.
I doubted myself and my relationship with my mother. I remembered how she was very fragile when it comes to health. I felt like I am the coldest person on the planet because at the time I thought her dieing would not only be a relief for myself as I would not have to worry about her any longer, but also one on herself because her life was so horrible at the time. I felt very guilty for those thoughts. I also felt guilty for not being in more contact. Guilty for having left the country. Guilty for things I shouldn't feel guilty for. I felt so guilty, that some religious thought had started to enter back into my mind.

After she got better and was back on her feet, I made a strict decision for myself. I needed to stop worrying about her so much. I needed to accept that it was her life and if she wanted to commit suicide, than it was going to be her decision. For the moment I decided to address her suicidal talk as a call for help, so I started to find her things she needed like therapists, support places, phone numbers, made appointments for her, etc etc. And it seemed to help. It has always been more a friendship between us than a mother-daughter relationship and the older I got, the more I became the mother in our relationship. So she had learnt that I am a good adviser and a good source of help when she needed it. And honestly I don't mind that, because finally she started to accept my help and it has improved her life a lot. At the moment she is actually doing very well. Considering her life so far, she is in a great place and she hasn't talked suicide in months.

This whole thing with me getting better and finally finding peace with my mom-situation, got me to think differently about suicide in general.
My own suicidal thoughts, although I feel happy with life and at peace, have not completely died down since I started to get better and better. The thing that changed is my approach to suicide. In my opinion, if a person has reasons to end their life and they decide to go ahead with it, we, as a society, should let them do it. They made a decision and this decision should be respected. Of course there is this one bit where you, as a friend or mother or sibling etc, have to make sure that this decision is not the solution to a problem that can be solved otherwise. I personally would respect this decision if a friend made it but I would make sure to question them and to try to help them with the underline problem. But there are sometimes things that cannot be made better. Some pains are too bad to deal with, some illnesses are too painful to keep going, some situations or outlooks on life might not be "worth trying" anymore at some point. A good friend or family member will make sure that these things are covered. They will talk through it but not stop the person. They will not play the guilt card "But there are people who need you here" because that is a very selfish and disrespecting approach.

I read a book once, that is actually illegal in most countries as far as I know (and also I forgot the title, but I can find out if needed), which was talking about suicide only. It was speaking about people who did it, about families where a family member did it. About planned suicide and about supportive families or neighbours. About ways to commit suicide (other than the "usual" things) and how those exactly work and what happens in the body. About pains, about assisted suicide, about legalities, and so on and so forth. Over all I thought it was a good read.
After that book, I watched several documentaries on YouTube that dealt with suicide. And at the end of all of it - btw this was just a couple of years ago - I spoke to my husband. I explained to him, that one day, I want to decide the time and the way of my death for myself. I made clear that I do not want to end up in an old people home or as a vegetable in a hospital and if I need, I will make that decision myself.
And he agreed with it as well. He doesn't like to talk about it too much, but we do have a together "plan" for one day (no date) and it is a lovely one to be honest. And really, if I have a big family at that time, I would love it to be a loving experience for all of my family.

Death in general shouldn't be this horrible black hole of fear. Death is a part of nature. Everything that lives will die one day. I don't want to raise my children (that I hopefully will have one day) with this horrible fear of death. Yes I want them to grow up happy and responsible and careful, I want them to value life. But death should not be a thing that cannot be talked about or cannot be dealt with. And if I am 85 and sick and I lived my life and saw my grandchildren and how things went on this planet, maybe I feel that now I should go. I want my family and friends to accept this decision and be happy for me for having had a good life, and ideally, I would like them to be around. To hold my hand, a last loving hug, and for them all to know that yes, I will be gone, but it had nothing to do with them, nobody is at fault for anything, no guilty feelings, etc. Just memories of a mom / a friend / a granny. Later a good meal, a few too many drinks, good music, etc.

*shrug* just my opinion ... but suicide doesn't have to be this horrible thing that only crazy people do. I think that in more cases than not, it is an absolutely viable decision of a person and this decision should be respected just as much as if a very sick person said that, against all odds, they want to keep fighting.
Some people want to stay alive, some don't. It's fine, it's how things are. Yes the people who are left behind will be sad that they lost someone, but they will be able to grief healthily without guilt or false hopes etc.

k done
cheers Leela Smile

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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06-07-2016, 05:21 PM
RE: About suicide and death
I agree with you.

There are also people who are alive because they consider suicide an option.

"If things get a lot worse, I can always choose to leave" can be the cushion some of us need to get through some trying times. For some of us, it can be liberating and allow us to take some risks that we would otherwise not take.

And you touched on another important thing: There is so much stigma attached to it, that just admitting you had this thought can cause people going through all kinds of contortions and you can end up in captivity in a mental hospital.

That is not helpful to the suicidal people in general, because the fear of that drives them underground and prevents them from talking things through with a non-judgmental person.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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06-07-2016, 05:32 PM
RE: About suicide and death
(06-07-2016 05:21 PM)Dom Wrote:  There are also people who are alive because they consider suicide an option.

"If things get a lot worse, I can always choose to leave" can be the cushion some of us need to get through some trying times. For some of us, it can be liberating and allow us to take some risks that we would otherwise not take.
This absolutely.
This is how I survived for quite a long time. And sometimes I still do, although not very often anymore.

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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06-07-2016, 05:47 PM
RE: About suicide and death
(06-07-2016 05:32 PM)Leela Wrote:  
(06-07-2016 05:21 PM)Dom Wrote:  There are also people who are alive because they consider suicide an option.

"If things get a lot worse, I can always choose to leave" can be the cushion some of us need to get through some trying times. For some of us, it can be liberating and allow us to take some risks that we would otherwise not take.
This absolutely.
This is how I survived for quite a long time. And sometimes I still do, although not very often anymore.

I have survived like this since I was a teenager, and I likely will until my body has gotten so old and creaky that it isn't able to yield a decent life anymore.

I don't see it as a negative or even a small disorder - to me it is just a rational way of looking at life. It IS an option. It is one of many factors and options to evaluate.

When I think about it, all the positives making life worth living come into play. It can be outright uplifting to think about it. I have always found plenty of things that make my life worth living.

People always associate thoughts about suicide with depression. But that is not at all always the case. Thoughts of suicide combined with depression are dangerous. But depression does not always come along with suicidal thoughts. These thoughts can be quite normal and rational.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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06-07-2016, 06:16 PM
RE: About suicide and death
Oh absolutely. I didn't add the "not very often anymore" in order to say that those thought mean a disorder. I am just generally not thinking about suicide a lot anymore because I am simply at peace with things and I know that suicide doesn't have to be horrible and/or painful which puts at ease. Because I know that if I want out, I can, and it doesn't have to be ugly.

On the depression point you make:
In my case everything did start as depression. I actually am diagnosed with BPD. The being suicidal was one of the symptoms that manifested in me, depression being another one, and a few more as well. They say that BPD never really goes away and in the beginning I didn't want to accept that. At this point I realize that it is correct, it doesn't go away completely. I am fine almost all the time but I do tilt over into depression quite easily if I am not careful, and things always start that way in my case. So for me, knowing what triggers the depression, also means that I know how to avoid my mind to escalate again. Learning this took many years but at this point I feel it is worth investing this time instead of ending my life. Because now I can finally enjoy life.

Actually, lol, I used to be exhausted because I didn't sleep because of the depression. Nowadays I am equally exhausted but at least for nice reasons like playing a computer game, reading something, or writing this post haha.
I think I should sleep now because my night is over in 6 hours Big Grin

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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06-07-2016, 06:47 PM
RE: About suicide and death
Thing is, it is helpful to talk about this openly.

Whenever you have society sweeping something under the carpet (homosexuality, rape, atheism, etc.) it is a sign that it needs to be dealt with. And you can't deal with something if you can't talk about it.

Go to bed! Sleep is important. Sweet dreams!

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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06-07-2016, 07:28 PM
RE: About suicide and death
I dislike the people who say "suicide is cowardly" the most. Even if it were true, it would do nothing whatsoever to help the problem, and you're only further alienating suicidal people by making a statement like that. Furthermore, depression is more complicated than just having bad thoughts, people seem to think it's something that someone can easily get over.

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06-07-2016, 08:48 PM
RE: About suicide and death
Suicide. A permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Nishi Sad

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06-07-2016, 08:51 PM
RE: About suicide and death
(06-07-2016 08:48 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Suicide. A permanent solution to a temporary problem.

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That is how you determine whether it is rational or not. Don't apply permanent solutions to temporary problems.

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07-07-2016, 05:50 AM
RE: About suicide and death
(06-07-2016 08:48 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Suicide. A permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Not always though.
As I said in the OP there are tons of reasons that aren't temporary and someone might want to end their life because of it. And that is absolutely acceptable to me. It is also why I said as a good friend or family, you need to make sure to care enough to question this decision without trying to stop them.

@GenisisNemesis: I agree. Also the "Suicide is selfish" fits there as well.

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