About the Testimonium Flavium
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 1 Votes - 5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
02-06-2016, 06:56 AM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(02-06-2016 06:03 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(01-06-2016 08:13 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You also never answered Girly's question.

If a census was taken to determine the opinions of scholars and 52% (+- 4%) of them agreed with your assertions of Josephus, would this be your overwhelming consensus agreement?

No.

And you ignored the rest of that question. More dishonesty from the tomato.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-06-2016, 06:58 AM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(02-06-2016 06:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(01-06-2016 08:00 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Special pleading. The bias and overreaching in your assumption has already been pointed out.

No it's not special pleading, bias, or overreaching. To hold that scholars are familiar with the scholarship in their particular field.

Quote:A field of study can have scholars who ascribe to a variety of views on a given topic. And one expert classifying the beliefs of his peers is NOT a valid metric for determining the overall opinion of the collective, period.

It's not just one scholar, you dishonest cunt, a variety of scholars have made the same claim, as cited in the wiki. If scholars are very familiar with the scholarship in their respective areas, their assessments on that scholarship, on what the predominant views are, are a valid metric for determine the overall view of the scholarship in the area. We don't need to await for an official poll to come out to determine this. In fact if we truly wanted to doubt this assessments we can familiarize ourselves with the scholarship in that area, to see if it holds true or not.


Quote:As has also been pointed out to you by others here, it is also important that the opinions of theologians not be conflated into this overall opinion of the field of history with respect to this particular subject, a point not addressed by you or your mined quote.

Except the person I quoted is not a theologian, or christian, but a jewish scholar. Teaching at a jewish university.

Quote:You just keep doubling down and say the same thing, that has no substance besides your appeal to authority.

It's not an appeal to authority, you clearly need to familiarize yourself with the fallacy again.


Quote:Meanwhile, you've been given adequate rebuttal from multiple people to point out the folly and ignorance in your assumption.

Yes like this person: "Biblical scholars are VERY, VERY aware of the view of other scholars."

You're the ignorant one here, you know almost next to nothing of the topic, but keep sprouting your nonsense, like suggesting that scholars are not familiar with scholarship in that area, that their assessments of that scholarship are not valid. A view that no one other than you seem to be suggestive of.

You typed more in this reply than you have before, but say the same bullshit again and again.

"My fallacy isn't a fallacy!"
"I'm right you're wrong because of FALLACY X!"
"Nu Uh! You're ignorant!"

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-06-2016, 07:07 AM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(02-06-2016 06:58 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "My fallacy isn't a fallacy!"
"I'm right you're wrong because of FALLACY X!"
"Nu Uh! You're ignorant!"

When you actually have something substantive to contribute to the topic, let me know.

Your argument, that we shouldn't place no stock in the assessments of scholars on the scholarship in their respective areas, and what the predominant views of said scholarship is, doesn't hold up, to anyone other than yourself.

Apparently you think it stupid to place merit on these views, but hey that's you. To each his own.

Quote:And you ignored the rest of that question. More dishonesty from the tomato.

Whatever.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-06-2016, 07:20 AM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(02-06-2016 07:07 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-06-2016 06:58 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "My fallacy isn't a fallacy!"
"I'm right you're wrong because of FALLACY X!"
"Nu Uh! You're ignorant!"

When you actually have something substantive to contribute to the topic, let me know.

Your argument, that we shouldn't place no stock in the assessments of scholars on the scholarship in their respective areas, and what the predominant views of said scholarship is, doesn't hold up, to anyone other than yourself.

Apparently you think it stupid to place merit on these views, but hey that's you. To each his own.

Quote:And you ignored the rest of that question. More dishonesty from the tomato.

Whatever.

Straw man and then you still continue to ignore the rest of the questions addressed to you.

Which is hilarious given that you request I contribute something substantive to the conversation, because Girly's original question and my follow-ups are important to the overall point you continue to refuse to accept, a singular opinion on the views of an entire group as "proof" of something is erroneous. Especially given that you've no idea what he means when he discusses the group as a whole either. What proportion of scholars believes that? You don't know and clearly don't care, but you continue to adhere to your appeal to authority on this point by brandishing the opinion about as if it's verifiable fact, then you get defensive when actually asked to corroborate that "verifiable fact."

How about another question (for you to ignore or reply to with a non-answer since I've already asked this too and it's been ignored)? What of the opinions contra to your (and your cherry picked scholars) Josephus opinion? Why do their arguments not provide a convincing reply? (Hint: it's no surprise that your bias pushes you to one of these evidence-less opinions instead of its criticism) What does it mean about the validity of a given opinion even if there is a consensus among experts in that field on it, especially if it is based on conjecture and counter arguments are not addressed? This isn't to be conflated with other areas of consensus among experts (like on evolution or climate change) where actual evidence is published and actual studies have been done to look at the consensus which includes looking at the size of the detractors.


Go on, waffle for us, Tomato Drinking Beverage

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-06-2016, 07:36 AM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
Nevermind. Decided to stay out of this one. Tomato pisses me off too much.

Just consider the full context, everyone:

http://biblehub.com/library/josephus/the..._under.htm

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
02-06-2016, 07:40 AM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(02-06-2016 07:20 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Straw man and then you still continue to ignore the rest of the questions addressed to you.

AH okay, so that's a straw man version of your views, you don't think: "that we shouldn't place no stock in the assessments of scholars on the scholarship in their respective areas, and what the predominant views of said scholarship is, doesn't hold up". If you don't subscribe to that view, then I'm not sure what it is I'm suppose to be arguing with you about here.

Quote:Which is hilarious given that you request I contribute something substantive to the conversation, because Girly's original question and my follow-ups are important to the overall point you continue to refuse to accept, a singular opinion on the views of an entire group as "proof" of something is erroneous.

I prefer letting Girlyman speak for himself in regards to his own post, which I responded to. If he has something to add to that, I'll await his reply, rather than have you speak on his behalf.

Quote:What proportion of scholars believes that?

What proportion of a population is meant by the term "near universal"? Clearly not just marginally above half.


Quote:You don't know and clearly don't care, but you continue to adhere to your appeal to authority on this point by brandishing the opinion about as if it's verifiable fact, then you get defensive when actually asked to corroborate that "verifiable fact."

Appealing to a scholar assessments of the scholarship his particular area is not an appeal to an authority, nor is holding that assessment as valid an appeal to authority, anymore so than appealing to my doctors assessment of my health is not an appeal to authority.

If one were to doubt the scholars assessments it should be fairly easy to debunk, by looking at scholarship in that particular area, to see whether his assessments holds true or not. Scholars assessments of the scholarship in a particular area, is a valid means of gauging what the views of the scholarship in that particular area are. According to you it's not apparently.

Quote:How about another question (for you to ignore or reply to with a non-answer since I've already asked this too and it's been ignored)? What of the opinions contra to your (and your cherry picked scholars) Josephus opinion? Why do their arguments not provide a convincing reply?

I've respond to pretty much all the claims contrary to the view of scholars in regards to the passage regarding James, that question it's authenticity, suggest that it was referring to another Jesus, the arguments for interpolation, etc... pointing out why they're far from convincing.

In fact I did so just several short post ago as well, but you clearly have a hard time paying attention.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-06-2016, 07:40 AM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(01-06-2016 04:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Louis Feldman states that the authenticity of the Josephus passage on James has been "almost universally acknowledged".

Nope. The Jesus Forgery: Josephus Untangled.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like SYZ's post
02-06-2016, 08:05 AM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(02-06-2016 07:40 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-06-2016 07:20 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Straw man and then you still continue to ignore the rest of the questions addressed to you.

AH okay, so that's a straw man version of your views, you don't think: "that we shouldn't place no stock in the assessments of scholars on the scholarship in their respective areas, and what the predominant views of said scholarship is, doesn't hold up". If you don't subscribe to that view, then I'm not sure what it is I'm suppose to be arguing with you about here.

Quote:Which is hilarious given that you request I contribute something substantive to the conversation, because Girly's original question and my follow-ups are important to the overall point you continue to refuse to accept, a singular opinion on the views of an entire group as "proof" of something is erroneous.

I prefer letting Girlyman speak for himself in regards to his own post, which I responded to. If he has something to add to that, I'll await his reply, rather than have you speak on his behalf.

Quote:What proportion of scholars believes that?

What proportion of a population is meant by the term "near universal"? Clearly not just marginally above half.


Quote:You don't know and clearly don't care, but you continue to adhere to your appeal to authority on this point by brandishing the opinion about as if it's verifiable fact, then you get defensive when actually asked to corroborate that "verifiable fact."

Appealing to a scholar assessments of the scholarship his particular area is not an appeal to an authority, nor is holding that assessment as valid an appeal to authority, anymore so than appealing to my doctors assessment of my health is not an appeal to authority.

If one were to doubt the scholars assessments it should be fairly easy to debunk, by looking at scholarship in that particular area, to see whether his assessments holds true or not. Scholars assessments of the scholarship in a particular area, is a valid means of gauging what the views of the scholarship in that particular area are. According to you it's not apparently.

Quote:How about another question (for you to ignore or reply to with a non-answer since I've already asked this too and it's been ignored)? What of the opinions contra to your (and your cherry picked scholars) Josephus opinion? Why do their arguments not provide a convincing reply?

I've respond to pretty much all the claims contrary to the view of scholars in regards to the passage regarding James, that question it's authenticity, suggest that it was referring to another Jesus, the arguments for interpolation, etc... pointing out why they're far from convincing.

In fact I did so just several short post ago as well, but you clearly have a hard time paying attention.

"AH okay, so that's a straw man version of your views, you don't think: "that we shouldn't place no stock in the assessments of scholars on the scholarship in their respective areas, and what the predominant views of said scholarship is, doesn't hold up". If you don't subscribe to that view, then I'm not sure what it is I'm suppose to be arguing with you about here."

That is not what I have said or insinuated, hence why I pointed out that it is a straw man. As I have said (in multiple examples) it is one thing for an expert to acknowledge the views and opinions they see as representative of their field, it is another entirely to make the claim that they know what the majority of these experts believe.

And in any event, a consensus itself is a meaningless piece of information without the context of why that view is widely held (once again, I have used specific examples like climate change and evolution to portray this point).

I can't help it that this has escaped you, tomato.

"Appealing to a scholar assessments of the scholarship his particular area is not an appeal to an authority, nor is holding that assessment as valid an appeal to authority, anymore so than appealing to my doctors assessment of my health is not an appeal to authority. "

You appeal to an expert's conjecture is an appeal to authority.

"If one were to doubt the scholars assessments it should be fairly easy to debunk, by looking at scholarship in that particular area, to see whether his assessments holds true or not. "

And you've had multiple people point out to you the existence of scholarly work that contradicts your opinion while waffling with cherry picked individuals to corroborate your claims. If you've an actual piece of information that shows the opinion of the experts as a whole, show it.

"Scholars assessments of the scholarship in a particular area, is a valid means of gauging what the views of the scholarship in that particular area are. According to you it's not apparently. "

Scholars discussing the views and opinions that exist is valid, but an expert's opinion on the opinion of the group of the whole is (in this case that you keep citing) erroneous bullshit.

"I've respond to pretty much all the claims contrary to the view of scholars in regards to the passage regarding James, that question it's authenticity, suggest that it was referring to another Jesus, the arguments for interpolation, etc... pointing out why they're far from convincing. "

"...they're far from convincing."

aka, it doesn't fit my religious worldview. Thumbsup

"In fact I did so just several short post ago as well, but you clearly have a hard time paying attention."

Wading through your bullshit is tiresome and nearly impossible given your propensity to respond to questions but not answer them as well as your atrocious reading comprehension and poor grammar skills.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like TheBeardedDude's post
02-06-2016, 08:35 AM (This post was last modified: 02-06-2016 08:39 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(02-06-2016 07:07 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-06-2016 06:58 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "My fallacy isn't a fallacy!"
"I'm right you're wrong because of FALLACY X!"
"Nu Uh! You're ignorant!"

When you actually have something substantive to contribute to the topic, let me know.

Your argument, that we shouldn't place no stock in the assessments of scholars on the scholarship in their respective areas, and what the predominant views of said scholarship is, doesn't hold up, to anyone other than yourself.

Apparently you think it stupid to place merit on these views, but hey that's you. To each his own.

Quote:And you ignored the rest of that question. More dishonesty from the tomato.

Whatever.

Other than ONE assertion, you have IN NO WAY demonstrated or PROVEN that there even is a "predominant" view. You failed. You also have NEVER once taken on any one particular argument of Carrier's or Price's and shown exactly what's wrong with them. The fact is, your presuppositionalism blinds you to any discourse, and your are utterly incompetent to even begin this discussion, and you know it. So you deflect, and equivocate. I feel sorry for you.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Bucky Ball's post
02-06-2016, 08:44 AM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(02-06-2016 08:05 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  That is not what I have said or insinuated, hence why I pointed out that it is a straw man.

If thats not what you’re insinuating than you don’t have any real argument to present.

Quote:As I have said (in multiple examples) it is one thing for an expert to acknowledge the views and opinions they see as representative of their field, it is another entirely to make the claim that they know what the majority of these experts believe.

Perhaps you need to demonstrate the nuance between a scholar being able to acknowledge the predominant views of their representative field, by familiarity with the scholarship in that area, and the scholar knowing what those views are.

Perhaps you can elaborate on the difference between them being able to acknowledge this based on familiarity with the scholarship in that area, and them knowing it. The difference between acknowledging something is true, and knowing something is true.

Quote:aka, it doesn't fit my religious worldview

Are you personally familiar with the contrary views to the passage regarding James are? Can you defend the contrary position? Or are you particularally ignorant on the topic, and can’t contribute much of anything one way or the other regarding this particular point?

If you believe you do have a solid understanding of the topic, to gauge whether the arguments for against a position are valid or not, then please tell me which view you want to defend, that the James passage is an interpolation, that the Jesus referred to in there was the high priest Yeshua` ben Damn?

My guess is that you don’t understand the argument one way or the other, that folks might as well be speaking a different language when discussing the topic, hence the reason you lack an actual position here to defend.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: