About the Testimonium Flavium
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02-06-2016, 10:42 AM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(02-06-2016 10:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-06-2016 10:31 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Your first request is nonsensical shifting of the burden of proof. Fuck off with your stupid fallacies you ignorant cunt.

On your second point, I don't know how to make this any clearer. The literature is a reflection of the published opinions of the authors at the time they published it. The published literature may not reflect a person's opinion post-publication (people change their mind if they are reasonable, a fact lost on you it seems) and the literature does not reflect the opinions of those who do not publish on that topic but are still scholars of that subject. Your ignorance of scholarly pursuits is noted.


I knew the dishonest cunt in you would come out at this point.

Answer the question:

Can a person gauge the scholarship in particular area (the literature as you put it), and make an assessments of the predominant views of said literature. Yes or No?

How many times do you want this question answered? A scholar can assess the literature that they read by reading it and get a sense of the opinions that exist within the literature on a given topic. This is NOT the same as saying they know the opinions of the entirety of the group of scholars on that subject. Such an extrapolation is conjecture.

It's interesting that you continuously take criticisms levied on you and apply them to others. In your eyes, I'm dishonest and dodge questions, but you don't (when your own replies on this thread should make it clear even to you the depth of this dishonest assessment)

You're quite the religious specimen.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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02-06-2016, 10:44 AM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(02-06-2016 10:38 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-06-2016 09:57 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Like I said "there are all sorts of scientists who support ID, and creationism.", this is not disputed by your survey.

In fact here's a list of some of these scientists who support ID:

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/05/sci...03594.html

5 or 6 out of 10's of thousands of scientists? Are you even trying?

Quote:Here's another list:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lists_of_cr...scientists

That article is antithetical to your argument. Are you even trying?

No the article is supportive of the only claim that I made in regards to this:

""there are all sorts of scientists who support ID, and creationism.""

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-06-2016, 10:50 AM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(02-06-2016 10:42 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(02-06-2016 10:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I knew the dishonest cunt in you would come out at this point.

Answer the question:

Can a person gauge the scholarship in particular area (the literature as you put it), and make an assessments of the predominant views of said literature. Yes or No?

How many times do you want this question answered? A scholar can assess the literature that they read by reading it and get a sense of the opinions that exist within the literature on a given topic. This is NOT the same as saying they know the opinions of the entirety of the group of scholars on that subject. Such an extrapolation is conjecture.

It's interesting that you continuously take criticisms levied on you and apply them to others. In your eyes, I'm dishonest and dodge questions, but you don't (when your own replies on this thread should make it clear even to you the depth of this dishonest assessment)

You're quite the religious specimen.

So your answer is yes, that a scholar can familiarize himself with the scholarship in particular area (the literature as you put it), and know what the predominant views are of said literature.

So what's your argument now, that the scholarly literature on a topic, is not representative of the views of scholars in that particular area?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-06-2016, 10:58 AM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(02-06-2016 10:50 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-06-2016 10:42 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  How many times do you want this question answered? A scholar can assess the literature that they read by reading it and get a sense of the opinions that exist within the literature on a given topic. This is NOT the same as saying they know the opinions of the entirety of the group of scholars on that subject. Such an extrapolation is conjecture.

It's interesting that you continuously take criticisms levied on you and apply them to others. In your eyes, I'm dishonest and dodge questions, but you don't (when your own replies on this thread should make it clear even to you the depth of this dishonest assessment)

You're quite the religious specimen.

So your answer is yes, that a scholar can familiarize himself with the scholarship in particular area (the literature as you put it), and know what the predominant views are of said literature.

So what's your argument now, that the scholarly literature on a topic, is not representative of the views of scholars in that particular area?

Do you not understand English? I've already answered that asinine question no less than 2 times in my last few posts. READ and COMPRHEND. If you come across a word that confuses you, look it up. I can't do your thinking for you.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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02-06-2016, 11:00 AM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(02-06-2016 10:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  So a person can gauge the scholarship in particular area (the literature as you put it), and make an assessments of the predominant views of said literature. Is that correct?

Maybe. Do Southern Baptist NT teachers read and teach Ehrman, or even for an instant consider that Jesus may not have existed ? No they don't.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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02-06-2016, 11:03 AM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(02-06-2016 10:58 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(02-06-2016 10:50 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  So your answer is yes, that a scholar can familiarize himself with the scholarship in particular area (the literature as you put it), and know what the predominant views are of said literature.

So what's your argument now, that the scholarly literature on a topic, is not representative of the views of scholars in that particular area?

Do you not understand English? I've already answered that asinine question no less than 2 times in my last few posts. READ and COMPRHEND. If you come across a word that confuses you, look it up. I can't do your thinking for you.

You respond yes, that scholars can familiarize themselves with the scholarship in a particular are (the literature as you out it), and know what the predominant views are of said literature.

I just want a direct answer as to whether you believe the scholarly literature on a topic is representative of the view of scholars in that particular area, or not. Yes or no. My expectation is that you'll avoid giving a direct answer here, and continue to play the role of a weasel.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-06-2016, 11:08 AM (This post was last modified: 02-06-2016 11:28 AM by The Organic Chemist.)
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(02-06-2016 06:42 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-06-2016 06:20 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  However, if the messiah part was what was tampered with, that would make you the one who is drawing a conclusion based on bias.

There's no real reason to imagine the messiah part as tampered with, it doesn't involve Josephus agreeing that Jesus was the messiah, but just noting that he was called the messiah by his followers. It's also found in every copy of Josephus we have, unlike other interpolation supported by their absence in other copies.

I never said it was. I was merely pointing out that the addition of one or two words greatly changes your argument. A few words doctor the statement. Something that the scholarly community agrees upon. I seem to remember you whining about someone dismissing consensus of scholars somewhere. It still has no bearing on whether this was the Yeshua you think existed and only states what these people believed. Additionally, Josephus mentions 4 or 5 other claimed Messiahs in his works in greater detail. Christian apologists like to ignore those. Additionally, please provide a citation for all copies. I am pretty sure that is false considering there are copies that were done by Origen that did not have this passage. Something that was already pointed out to you.

(02-06-2016 06:42 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  There's also no connect between a Yeshua' Ben Damnai, having a brother named James, let alone a brother that would end up stoned. Where as James's relationship with Jesus is indicated by both Paul, and the writers of Mark and Luke. Leaving the likelihood of the James in Josephus squarely in the Jesus camp.

I never said there was. Someone else did though. This is a silly thing though because you are acting like there was no possibility that there was someone else named Yeshus who had a friend or brother named James. It's like saying that there is a guy named Joe with a close relationship with a dude named Jim. I guarantee there are tins who fit this description. Furthermore, Tom, your ignorance of the language shows. We have no idea whether James was a literal brother or a very close friend. The Greek word for them is the same. You are just displaying confirmation bias. Again.

(02-06-2016 06:42 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  People tend to want to imagine it was in reference to Yeshua Ben Damnnai, but that seems to be more a product of their anti-christian tendencies, more so than because this is a more reasonable conclusion, which it's not.

I don't give a crap whether that was a reference to him or not. Let's say it is. In no way does anything in Josephus give us any idea on Jesus, who he really was, anything he actually did (short of dying), or whether anything you think is true is nothing more than legend. It only indicates what these people believed and I can guarantee you that that there are people alive who think that L. Ron Hubbard was a prophet and will come again. That doesn't make it true.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
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02-06-2016, 11:10 AM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(02-06-2016 11:03 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-06-2016 10:58 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Do you not understand English? I've already answered that asinine question no less than 2 times in my last few posts. READ and COMPRHEND. If you come across a word that confuses you, look it up. I can't do your thinking for you.

You respond yes, that scholars can familiarize themselves with the scholarship in a particular are (the literature as you out it), and know what the predominant views are of said literature.

I just want a direct answer as to whether you believe the scholarly literature on a topic is representative of the view of scholars in that particular area, or not. Yes or no. My expectation is that you'll avoid giving a direct answer here, and continue to play the role of a weasel.

Yo continue to accuse others of your own failing.

How many times do you want this question answered? A scholar can assess the literature that they read by reading it and get a sense of the opinions that exist within the literature on a given topic. This is NOT the same as saying they know the opinions of the entirety of the group of scholars on that subject. Such an extrapolation is conjecture.

The literature expresses the conclusions and assumptions of authors as they publish them, but this does NOT reflect the academic community as a whole on that subject and cannot account for changing opinions.



Your goalpost shifting is getting tiresome.

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02-06-2016, 11:16 AM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(02-06-2016 10:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-06-2016 10:38 AM)Chas Wrote:  5 or 6 out of 10's of thousands of scientists? Are you even trying?


That article is antithetical to your argument. Are you even trying?

No the article is supportive of the only claim that I made in regards to this:

""there are all sorts of scientists who support ID, and creationism.""

And that is precisely what is not true.

There are very few sorts who support ID or creationism; only the fundamentalist religious sorts.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-06-2016, 11:22 AM (This post was last modified: 02-06-2016 11:41 AM by Deesse23.)
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(02-06-2016 09:57 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Like I said "there are all sorts of scientists who support ID, and creationism.", this is not disputed by your survey.

In fact here's a list of some of these scientists who support ID:

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/05/sci...03594.html

A website that lists
Michael Behe Laugh out load Thumbsup
first

...then Gonzalez who is a leading member of Discovery Institute and professor at a private, christian university Weeping

Minnich, who supports Behes utterly stupid idea of "irreducible complexity" as demonstrated in the bacterium flagellum (yeah right, the silly idea Miller so exquisitely debunked).

Then Lönnig, this stupid excuse for a german (i hereby apologize on behalf of Germany) a Yehovahs witness, who used the public server of the Max-Plack institute, where he was employed at the time, to promote his particular faith and ID. He published writings about creation (not ID!) and various anti-evolutionary stupidities and masked it as "science". Max-planck institute then moved this data to his personal dataspace, which led Lönning to calling this "inquisition". Facepalm
Yeah, what a great reference this guy is for the cause of ID! What a man/scientist of integrity!

Max-Planck institute later felt compelled to distance itself officially in a scientific journal from Lönnig and ID!

A website that calls itself "Evolution news and views", but links exclusively to other ID websites like Thumbsup
  • Discovery Institute
  • Intelligentdesign.org
  • ID the future
  • Faith and evolution
  • Signature in the cell
    etc
    pp

Gimme a break Laugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out load

EDIT: wtf has "faith and evolution" supposedly to do with science or ID, eh?

My intellect almost feels insulted by you assuming anyone would be so gullible and buy this BS. Dodgy

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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