About the Testimonium Flavium
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04-06-2016, 02:56 PM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(04-06-2016 02:16 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 01:55 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Observing groupthink is more interesting to me.

Way to insult the entire forum asshole.

No, not every body in the forum has to engage in groupthink. Most of the forum in any particular discussion is absent, or not interested. Nor was I including you, since on most topics your tend to have your own views, not particularly compatible with everyone else, and not necessarily supportive of other views either, or other than some side comments here and there, don't say much at all regarding topics like this.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-06-2016, 03:00 PM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(04-06-2016 02:56 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 02:16 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Way to insult the entire forum asshole.

No, not every body in the forum has to engage in groupthink. Most of the forum in any particular discussion is absent, or not interested. Nor was I including you, since on most topics your tend to have your own views, not particularly compatible with everyone else, and not necessarily supportive of other views either, or other than some side comments here and there, don't say much at all regarding topics like this.

*As if* at this point, anyone cares what Tommy the judgmental chuch lady thinks.
Our minds are all POLLUTED. FacepalmWeeping

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-06-2016, 03:16 PM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(04-06-2016 02:05 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  More assertions. No evidence. i don't want anything, except evidence. The use of the word 'brother' is the question, not to whom it referred. Clearly Paul used it to refer to fellow Christians. THAT is enough to leave room for doubt. For NO REASON, you are trying to create a case for special pleading. No scholar agrees with you, and you are not competent to make the case by yourself. FAR FAR better people than you, don't buy it.

Even in our time, the word brother is commonly used both figuratively and literally, like the male tendency to refer to their friends, as bros. But in most cases we can determine by context whether it’s meant literally or figuratively. Like if we’re to introduce you to someone as, hey this is Bucky, Bill’s brother, that the term brother is being used literally.

The meaning of brother is determined by how it’s being used, whom it’s being referred to. Paul writes of his encounter with James, indicating to his readers, that this James is the brother of Jesus. He doesn’t refer to anyone else as the lord’s brother but James.

This relationship again is further supported by Matthew, and Mark, as well as by Josephus. There’s very little if any space to reasonably conclude that it was meant non-literally by Paul, except in your deluded mind.

Quote:Keeping an open mind on a unsettled subject is only bad for ignorant fundies.

And your mind appears to be so open, than your brain fell out. Every conspiracy nut, appeals to having an open mind.

Quote:You're no more here "observing groupthink" than I am. You're here to make generalizations about atheist, because like all judgmental theists, it makes you feel superior.

Sure in certain arguments I feel quite confident, and do find some satisfaction when those trying to argue with me, have nothing left but quite impotent arguments. Where it appears that the person is not necessarily arguing with me because he disagrees with me, but arguing because he doesn’t want to agree.

Your entire argument for the term brother being non-literal, deliberately tries to exclude the particular context, how it is stated, who is being referred to, the other writing that establish the same relationship, and tries to make a specific distinction vague for you own dishonest purposes.

It’s weak shit, but you’ll keep trying to argue it, much to my amusement. And I’ll admit that I do sort of get off hearing you pathetically make your case.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-06-2016, 03:19 PM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(04-06-2016 02:56 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 02:16 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Way to insult the entire forum asshole.

No, not every body in the forum has to engage in groupthink.

You likely don't realize just how insulting that is.

#sigh
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04-06-2016, 03:34 PM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(04-06-2016 02:53 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 02:26 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  A) never met jesus[/q]

No, but he did meet his disciples, and his brother James.

Quote:Had self-professed hallucinations (on the road to damascus)

In that regards so did Rev. King, and the mother of Emmet Till.

Quote:C) Half of the biblical works attributed to him were not written by him.
And the other half were.


Quote: When the only person on record who claims to have been visited by the executed alleged messiah is the leader of the cult...one would be wise to question the validity of not only that statement, but all of his statements. Someone claiming to have been visited by a zombie savior, hears voices, has hallucinations, and positions himself as the leader of a cult deserves derision, a nice padded room, and some good meds.

What is it, did he hallucinate, or did he make shit up? Either he was lying about his vision, or he a had hallucinatory vision. Unless the person knows he's hallucinating, he's not particularly lying when he states what he saw, or heard. But there's no real reason to believe that Paul was lying about meeting his disciples and James, particularly when he highlight the contentions between them, regarding the gentiles and the jewish ritual laws.

But either way, Paul stating that he met Jesus's literal brother, indicates that he did acknowledge Jesus as a historical person, unlike mythicist who argue that Paul didn't believe in a historical jesus. Even if he was lying, such a passage would indicate he was lying about someone who he though was a historical person.

Not to mention if he was lying, it would mean that he had already known that James was Jesus's brother, without ever meeting him. Matthew, and Mark also state this relationship, and so does Josephus, in the passage regarding James's death.

Meeting disciples and james does not equate having met jesus, or ever being a first hand eyewitness to jesus's Benny Hinn magic show.

While I respect Rev King as a civil rights hero, his belief in magic brings to question his mental acuity in theological/philosophical subjects.

50% of one's written work not even being written by him casts a shadow on credibility when one quotes those pseudonymous works.

Doesn't matter if Paul made shit up, or hallucinated, either way, he is not what one would call a credible source.

Doesn't matter if jesus of nazareth existed as a flesh and blood person or not, clearly he was not the messiah (even though saying a messiah existed is like saying fairies exist in my backyard) as he failed in all of the prophesied actions of the mythical messiah, and all the stories of magic have zero corroboration, and no empirical, archaeological, historical or contemporary evidence to substantiate them. Messiah MYTH.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-06-2016, 03:40 PM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
Belief in magic may indicate great mental acuity. *Publicly espoused* belief in magic. If you can bring yourself to wear the badge and spout fatuous comments it's possible to lead a nation. *Privately held* belief in magic on the other hand Rolleyes Not that those who hold such beliefs can bring themselves to keep quiet about it Dodgy But the priests must love the true believers with a sincere love.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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04-06-2016, 03:42 PM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
There seems to be a consensus opinion forming here about ol' tomato.

Or is that just "group think" on our part? (And if so, why is "group think" not something you consider responsible for people accepting Jesus as real without actual evidence, even among experts? Consider )

Laugh out load

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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04-06-2016, 03:48 PM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(04-06-2016 03:42 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  There seems to be a consensus opinion forming here about ol' tomato.

Or is that just "group think" on our part? (And if so, why is "group think" not something you consider responsible for people accepting Jesus as real without actual evidence, even among experts? Consider )

Laugh out load

Your mind is just polluted. Tongue

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-06-2016, 03:49 PM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(04-06-2016 03:34 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Meeting disciples and james does not equate having met jesus, or ever being a first hand eyewitness to jesus's Benny Hinn magic show.


Paul was mentioned here, in regards to the second passage from Josephus supportive of a historical Jesus, the passage regarding James as Jesus's brother. While Paul did not meet Jesus, he did meet his brother James. Establishing the same connection indicated by Paul's first-hand account, along with the Matthew and Mark's gospel. My argument was primarily directed and those who suggested that Paul didn't mean a literal brother. That Josephus was referring to another Jesus, that the Christ word in the James passage was an interpolation, etc....

The rest of what you want to argue, were not relevant to anything I've said, such as whether Jesus was the messiah or not, or his magic show.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-06-2016, 03:49 PM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(04-06-2016 03:16 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 02:05 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  More assertions. No evidence. i don't want anything, except evidence. The use of the word 'brother' is the question, not to whom it referred. Clearly Paul used it to refer to fellow Christians. THAT is enough to leave room for doubt. For NO REASON, you are trying to create a case for special pleading. No scholar agrees with you, and you are not competent to make the case by yourself. FAR FAR better people than you, don't buy it.

Even in our time, the word brother is commonly used both figuratively and literally, like the male tendency to refer to their friends, as bros. But in most cases we can determine by context whether it’s meant literally or figuratively. Like if we’re to introduce you to someone as, hey this is Bucky, Bill’s brother, that the term brother is being used literally.

The meaning of brother is determined by how it’s being used, whom it’s being referred to. Paul writes of his encounter with James, indicating to his readers, that this James is the brother of Jesus. He doesn’t refer to anyone else as the lord’s brother but James.

This relationship again is further supported by Matthew, and Mark, as well as by Josephus. There’s very little if any space to reasonably conclude that it was meant non-literally by Paul, except in your deluded mind.

Quote:Keeping an open mind on a unsettled subject is only bad for ignorant fundies.

And your mind appears to be so open, than your brain fell out. Every conspiracy nut, appeals to having an open mind.

Quote:You're no more here "observing groupthink" than I am. You're here to make generalizations about atheist, because like all judgmental theists, it makes you feel superior.

Sure in certain arguments I feel quite confident, and do find some satisfaction when those trying to argue with me, have nothing left but quite impotent arguments. Where it appears that the person is not necessarily arguing with me because he disagrees with me, but arguing because he doesn’t want to agree.

Your entire argument for the term brother being non-literal, deliberately tries to exclude the particular context, how it is stated, who is being referred to, the other writing that establish the same relationship, and tries to make a specific distinction vague for you own dishonest purposes.

It’s weak shit, but you’ll keep trying to argue it, much to my amusement. And I’ll admit that I do sort of get off hearing you pathetically make your case.

Thanks for all the bullshit the equivocation. You were proven wrong in your statement.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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