About the Testimonium Flavium
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04-06-2016, 03:54 PM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
Quote:"Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works

Quote:He was [the] Christ;


Quote:those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him;

It does not seem that a rational person wrote this stuff. It very much seems that a Christain wrote it.
What say you?!
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04-06-2016, 04:04 PM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(04-06-2016 03:48 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 03:42 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  There seems to be a consensus opinion forming here about ol' tomato.

Or is that just "group think" on our part? (And if so, why is "group think" not something you consider responsible for people accepting Jesus as real without actual evidence, even among experts? Consider )

Laugh out load

Your mind is just polluted. Tongue

Clearly what I need is some good ol' brainwashing like tomato got Laugh out load

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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04-06-2016, 04:09 PM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(04-06-2016 03:49 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 03:34 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Meeting disciples and james does not equate having met jesus, or ever being a first hand eyewitness to jesus's Benny Hinn magic show.


Paul was mentioned here, in regards to the second passage from Josephus supportive of a historical Jesus, the passage regarding James as Jesus's brother. While Paul did not meet Jesus, he did meet his brother James. Establishing the same connection indicated by Paul's first-hand account, along with the Matthew and Mark's gospel. My argument was primarily directed and those who suggested that Paul didn't mean a literal brother. That Josephus was referring to another Jesus, that the Christ word in the James passage was an interpolation, etc....

The rest of what you want to argue, were not relevant to anything I've said, such as whether Jesus was the messiah or not, or his magic show.

ah, forgive me for jumping in while distracted. Speaking of Josephus...you are aware he wasn't even alive when jesus was executed right? 37 CE was his birthdate. Now I do believe you are bringing him up to validate a physical jesus existing blah blah blah....and that is when we fall down the interpolation hole.

Josephus died sometime after the year 100 and his two major tomes were ‘The antiquities of the Jews’ and ‘the wars of the Jews’. Antiquities was written some time after the year 90 CE. In book 18, chapter 3, this paragraph is encountered:

now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works – a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, and condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and 10,000 other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”

This does appear to give historical confirmation for the existence of Jesus.Consider But is it authentic? Most scholars, including most fundamentalist scholars, admit that at least some parts of this paragraph cannot be authentic. Many are convinced that the entire paragraph is a complete forgery, an interpolation inserted by Christians at a later time. There are at least seven solid reasons for this:

1) The paragraph is absent from early copies of the works of Josephus. For example, it does not appear in Origen’s second century version of Josephus, in ‘Origen Contra Celsum’, where Origen fiercely defended Christianity against the heretical views of Celsus. Origen quoted freely from Josephus to prove his points, but never once used this paragraph, which would have been the ultimate ace up his sleeve.

In fact, the Josephus paragraph about Jesus does not appear at all until the beginning of the fourth century, at the time of Emperor Constantine. Bishop Eusebius, a close ally of the Emperor, was instrumental in crystallizing and defining the version of Christianity that was to become Orthodox, and he is the first person known to have quoted this paragraph of Josephus. Eusebius once wrote that it was a permissible “medicine” for historians to create fictions – prompting historian Jacob Burckhardt to call Eusebius “the first thoroughly dishonest historian of antiquity.”

The fact that Josephus – Jesus paragraph shows up at this point in history – at a time when interpolations and revisions were quite common and when the Emperor was eager to demolish gnostic Christianity and replace it with literalistic Christianity – makes the passage quite dubious. Many scholars believe that Eusebius was the forger and interpolator of the paragraph on Jesus that magically appears in the works of Josephus.

2) Josephus would not have called Jesus “the Christ” or “the truth.” Whoever wrote these phrases was a believing Christian. Josephus was a messianic Jew, and if he truly believed Jesus was the long-awaited Messiah (the Christ), he certainly would have given more than a passing reference to him. Josephus never converted to Christianity. Origen reported that Josephus was “not believing in Jesus as the Christ.”

3) The passage is out of context. Book 18 (containing the interval of 32 years from the banishment of Archelus to the departure from Babylon) starts with Roman taxation under Cyrenius in 6 CE and talks about various Jewish sexts at the time, including the Essenes and a sect of Judas the Galilean, which he devotes three times more space than to Jesus. He discusses at great depth the local history in great detail. But oddly this single paragraph can be lifted out of the text with no damage to the chapter or the way it flows.… Almost as if it was added after the fact, which of course it was.

4) The phrase “to this day” shows that this is a later interpolation. There was no “tribe of Christians” during Josephus time. Christianity did not get off the ground until the second century.

5) In all of Josephus voluminuous works, there is not a single reference to Christianity anywhere outside of this tiny paragraph. He relates much more about John the Baptist than about Jesus. He lists the activities of many other self-proclaimed Messiahs, including Judas of Galilee, Theudas the magician and the Egyptian Jew Messiah, but is mute about the life of one whom he claims (if he had actually wrote it) is the answer to this messianic hopes.

6) The paragraph mentions that the “divine prophets” foretold the life Jesus, but Josephus neglects to mention who these prophets were or what they said. In no other place does Josephus connect any Hebrew prediction with the life of Jesus. If Jesus truly had been the fulfillment of divine prophecy, as Christians believe, Josephus would’ve been the one learned enough to document it.

7) The hyperbolic language of the paragraph is uncharacteristic of a careful historian: “… As the divine prophets had foretold these and 10,000 other wonderful things concerning him…” This sounds more like sectarian propaganda – in other words, more like the new testament – than objective reporting. It is very unlike Josephus.

You should be careful when refering to Josephus as historical confirmation for Jesus. If we remove the forged paragraph, as we should, the works of Josephus become evidence against historicity. Josephus was a native of Judea and a contemporary of the apostles. He was governor of Galilee for a time, the province in which Jesus allegedly lived and taught. He transversed every part of this province and visited the places where but a generation before Christ performed his prodigies. He resided in Cana, the very city in which Christ is said to have wrought his first miracle. He mentions every noted personage of Palestine and describes every important event that occurred there during the first 70 years of the Christian era. But Christ was of so little consequence and his deeds too trivial to merit a line from this historian’s pen.

Smartass

Let me know if there is anything else about the NT or historicity of jesus I can enlighten you on.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-06-2016, 04:31 PM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(04-06-2016 04:09 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Josephus.

You should be careful when refering to Josephus as historical confirmation for Jesus. If we remove the forged paragraph, as we should, the works of Josephus become evidence against historicity.

We weren't even referring to that passage, but that another passage from Josephus, where Jesus is mentioned again, in reference to Josephus writing of James's death, mentioning that he was the brother of Jesus. This passage is deemed almost universally authentic by scholars.

Quote:peaking of Josephus...you are aware he wasn't even alive when jesus was executed right? 37 CE was his birthdate.

And you are aware that for the entire period of roman-palestine, all we have are the chronicles of jewish Josephus, and jewish Philo of Alexandria. Pretty much for anyone written about during that time, including important political figures like Pilate, (all written after his death as well) all we have is their writings, outside of religious sources, like the NT.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-06-2016, 04:32 PM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(04-06-2016 04:31 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 04:09 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Josephus.

You should be careful when refering to Josephus as historical confirmation for Jesus. If we remove the forged paragraph, as we should, the works of Josephus become evidence against historicity.

We weren't even referring to that passage, but that another passage from Josephus, where Jesus is mentioned again, in reference to Josephus writing of James's death, mentioning that he was the brother of Jesus. This passage is deemed almost universally authentic by scholars.

Quote:peaking of Josephus...you are aware he wasn't even alive when jesus was executed right? 37 CE was his birthdate.

And you are aware that for the entire period of roman-palestine, all we have are the chronicles of jewish Josephus, and jewish Philo of Alexandria. Pretty much for anyone written about during that time, including important political figures like Pilate, all we have is their writings, outside of religious sources, like the NT.

True, odd that Philo never mentions jesus.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-06-2016, 04:38 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2016 04:45 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(04-06-2016 04:32 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  True, odd that Philo never mentions jesus.

Not surprising judging that Philo lived a couple hundred miles away in Alexandria, and dealt primarily with the political situation in Alexandria, and his own philosophical musings, and died around 50 C.E, long before Christianity was likely to reach Alexandria.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-06-2016, 05:15 PM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(04-06-2016 03:40 PM)morondog Wrote:  Belief in magic

I hate you stupid canine. Angry




There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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04-06-2016, 05:16 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2016 07:28 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(04-06-2016 04:38 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 04:32 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  True, odd that Philo never mentions jesus.

Not surprising judging that Philo lived a couple hundred miles away in Alexandria, and dealt primarily with the political situation in Alexandria, and his own philosophical musings, and died around 50 C.E, long before Christianity was likely to reach Alexandria.

Yet Philo was frequently in Jerusalem. Thanks again for demonstrating your ignorance on any relevant topic. His silence on Jesus shouts loudly.
Edit: he had many family members in Jerusalem, and frequent contact. He wrote about all sorts of mundane things in Jerusalem FAR less important than crucifying a messiah claimant. Yet not one word about Jesus.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-06-2016, 05:55 PM
About the Testimonium Flavium
(04-06-2016 05:16 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 04:38 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Not surprising judging that Philo lived a couple hundred miles away in Alexandria, and dealt primarily with the political situation in Alexandria, and his own philosophical musings, and died around 50 C.E, long before Christianity was likely to reach Alexandria.

Yet Philo was frequently in Jerusalem. Thanks again for demonstrating your ignorance on any relevant topic. His silence on Jesus shouts loudly.


Really Philo made frequent 600mile trips to Jerusalem?

This is where I call you out for lying, Philo mentions visiting Jerusalem once, and judging that the only sources we have regarding Philo is brief mention in Josephus, and Philo's own writing, I call bull-shit.




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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-06-2016, 06:07 PM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(04-06-2016 01:06 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 09:54 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  ...... but as far as NT history, the history of xianity, I'll go toe to toe with anybody.

Don't tempt me. I am busy writing a 30-page thesis at the moment, but I am confident I have an in-depth and erudite knowledge of the NT. Even have a pretty piece of paper framed that says so Tongue

I pray to the god I don't believe in let this go to the boxing ring.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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