About the Testimonium Flavium
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04-06-2016, 06:08 PM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
He had frequent and multiple family contacts in the region.
He says nothing about Jesus
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/philo.html

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04-06-2016, 06:12 PM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(04-06-2016 02:56 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 02:16 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Way to insult the entire forum asshole.

No, not every body in the forum has to engage in groupthink. Most of the forum in any particular discussion is absent, or not interested. Nor was I including you, since on most topics your tend to have your own views, not particularly compatible with everyone else, and not necessarily supportive of other views either, or other than some side comments here and there, don't say much at all regarding topics like this.

Why? Because we don't agree with you? If you actually bothered to read what many of us have written, you may realize that there is a point to be made. I have a feeling that you would accuse a group of people with evidence to support a claim of groupthink instead of pondering the argument. Have you ever even considered that you might be wrong?

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04-06-2016, 07:29 PM (This post was last modified: 05-06-2016 05:53 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(04-06-2016 06:12 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 02:56 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, not every body in the forum has to engage in groupthink. Most of the forum in any particular discussion is absent, or not interested. Nor was I including you, since on most topics your tend to have your own views, not particularly compatible with everyone else, and not necessarily supportive of other views either, or other than some side comments here and there, don't say much at all regarding topics like this.

Why? Because we don't agree with you? If you actually bothered to read what many of us have written, you may realize that there is a point to be made. I have a feeling that you would accuse a group of people with evidence to support a claim of groupthink instead of pondering the argument. Have you ever even considered that you might be wrong?


He already told us he cannot imagine that. Rolleyes
He's actually said that he cannot handle the "suspended judgement" position of ''we don't know".

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04-06-2016, 07:38 PM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(04-06-2016 04:09 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 03:49 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Paul was mentioned here, in regards to the second passage from Josephus supportive of a historical Jesus, the passage regarding James as Jesus's brother. While Paul did not meet Jesus, he did meet his brother James. Establishing the same connection indicated by Paul's first-hand account, along with the Matthew and Mark's gospel. My argument was primarily directed and those who suggested that Paul didn't mean a literal brother. That Josephus was referring to another Jesus, that the Christ word in the James passage was an interpolation, etc....

The rest of what you want to argue, were not relevant to anything I've said, such as whether Jesus was the messiah or not, or his magic show.

ah, forgive me for jumping in while distracted. Speaking of Josephus...you are aware he wasn't even alive when jesus was executed right? 37 CE was his birthdate. Now I do believe you are bringing him up to validate a physical jesus existing blah blah blah....and that is when we fall down the interpolation hole.

Josephus died sometime after the year 100 and his two major tomes were ‘The antiquities of the Jews’ and ‘the wars of the Jews’. Antiquities was written some time after the year 90 CE. In book 18, chapter 3, this paragraph is encountered:

now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works – a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, and condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and 10,000 other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”

This does appear to give historical confirmation for the existence of Jesus.Consider But is it authentic? Most scholars, including most fundamentalist scholars, admit that at least some parts of this paragraph cannot be authentic. Many are convinced that the entire paragraph is a complete forgery, an interpolation inserted by Christians at a later time. There are at least seven solid reasons for this:

1) The paragraph is absent from early copies of the works of Josephus. For example, it does not appear in Origen’s second century version of Josephus, in ‘Origen Contra Celsum’, where Origen fiercely defended Christianity against the heretical views of Celsus. Origen quoted freely from Josephus to prove his points, but never once used this paragraph, which would have been the ultimate ace up his sleeve.

In fact, the Josephus paragraph about Jesus does not appear at all until the beginning of the fourth century, at the time of Emperor Constantine. Bishop Eusebius, a close ally of the Emperor, was instrumental in crystallizing and defining the version of Christianity that was to become Orthodox, and he is the first person known to have quoted this paragraph of Josephus. Eusebius once wrote that it was a permissible “medicine” for historians to create fictions – prompting historian Jacob Burckhardt to call Eusebius “the first thoroughly dishonest historian of antiquity.”

The fact that Josephus – Jesus paragraph shows up at this point in history – at a time when interpolations and revisions were quite common and when the Emperor was eager to demolish gnostic Christianity and replace it with literalistic Christianity – makes the passage quite dubious. Many scholars believe that Eusebius was the forger and interpolator of the paragraph on Jesus that magically appears in the works of Josephus.

2) Josephus would not have called Jesus “the Christ” or “the truth.” Whoever wrote these phrases was a believing Christian. Josephus was a messianic Jew, and if he truly believed Jesus was the long-awaited Messiah (the Christ), he certainly would have given more than a passing reference to him. Josephus never converted to Christianity. Origen reported that Josephus was “not believing in Jesus as the Christ.”

3) The passage is out of context. Book 18 (containing the interval of 32 years from the banishment of Archelus to the departure from Babylon) starts with Roman taxation under Cyrenius in 6 CE and talks about various Jewish sexts at the time, including the Essenes and a sect of Judas the Galilean, which he devotes three times more space than to Jesus. He discusses at great depth the local history in great detail. But oddly this single paragraph can be lifted out of the text with no damage to the chapter or the way it flows.… Almost as if it was added after the fact, which of course it was.

4) The phrase “to this day” shows that this is a later interpolation. There was no “tribe of Christians” during Josephus time. Christianity did not get off the ground until the second century.

5) In all of Josephus voluminuous works, there is not a single reference to Christianity anywhere outside of this tiny paragraph. He relates much more about John the Baptist than about Jesus. He lists the activities of many other self-proclaimed Messiahs, including Judas of Galilee, Theudas the magician and the Egyptian Jew Messiah, but is mute about the life of one whom he claims (if he had actually wrote it) is the answer to this messianic hopes.

6) The paragraph mentions that the “divine prophets” foretold the life Jesus, but Josephus neglects to mention who these prophets were or what they said. In no other place does Josephus connect any Hebrew prediction with the life of Jesus. If Jesus truly had been the fulfillment of divine prophecy, as Christians believe, Josephus would’ve been the one learned enough to document it.

7) The hyperbolic language of the paragraph is uncharacteristic of a careful historian: “… As the divine prophets had foretold these and 10,000 other wonderful things concerning him…” This sounds more like sectarian propaganda – in other words, more like the new testament – than objective reporting. It is very unlike Josephus.

You should be careful when refering to Josephus as historical confirmation for Jesus. If we remove the forged paragraph, as we should, the works of Josephus become evidence against historicity. Josephus was a native of Judea and a contemporary of the apostles. He was governor of Galilee for a time, the province in which Jesus allegedly lived and taught. He transversed every part of this province and visited the places where but a generation before Christ performed his prodigies. He resided in Cana, the very city in which Christ is said to have wrought his first miracle. He mentions every noted personage of Palestine and describes every important event that occurred there during the first 70 years of the Christian era. But Christ was of so little consequence and his deeds too trivial to merit a line from this historian’s pen.

Smartass

Let me know if there is anything else about the NT or historicity of jesus I can enlighten you on.

100% agreed.

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04-06-2016, 09:02 PM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(04-06-2016 04:38 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 04:32 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  True, odd that Philo never mentions jesus.

Not surprising judging that Philo lived a couple hundred miles away in Alexandria, and dealt primarily with the political situation in Alexandria, and his own philosophical musings, and died around 50 C.E, long before Christianity was likely to reach Alexandria.

Blink

Facepalm

Philo of Alexandria 20 BCE to 40 CE
The early years of the Roman Republic is one of the most historically documented times in history. One of the writers alive during the time of Jesus was Philo-Judaeus (sometimes known as Philo of Alexandria).

Philo was born before the beginning of the Christian era, and lived until long after the reputed death of Christ. He wrote an account of the Jews covering the entire time that Christ is said to have existed on earth. He was living in or near Jerusalem when Christ’s miraculous birth and the Herodian massacre occurred. He was there when Christ made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem. He was there when the crucifixion happened with its attendant earthquake, supernatural darkness and resurrection of the dead took place – when Christ himself rose from the dead and in the presence of many witnesses ascended into heaven. These amazing marvelous events which must have filled the world with amazement, had they really occurred, were all unknown to him. It was Philo who developed the doctrine of the Logos, or Word, and although this Word incarnate dwelt in that very land and in the presence of multitudes revealed himself and demonstrated his divine powers, Philo saw it not, nor apparently even heard about any of it.

Philo might be considered the investigative reporter of his day. He was there on location during the early first century, talking with people who should have remembered or at least heard the stories, observed, taking notes, documenting. He reported nothing about Jesus.

Philo of Alexandria, a Hellenized Jew also called Judaeus Philo, is a figure that spans two cultures, the Greek, and the Hebrew. When Hebrew mythical thought met Greek philosophical thought in the first century B.C.E. it was only natural that someone would try to develop speculative and philosophical justification for Judaism in terms of Greek philosophy. Thus, Philo produced a synthesis of both traditions developing concepts for future Hellenistic interpretation of messianic Hebrew thought, especially by Clement of Alexandria, Christian Apologists like Athenagoras, Theophilus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and by Origen. He may have influenced Paul, his contemporary, and perhaps the authors of the Gospel of John and the Epistle to the Hebrews. In the process, he laid the foundations for the development of Christianity in the West and in the East, as we know it today. Philo's primary importance is in the development of the philosophical and theological foundations of Christianity. The church preserved the Philonic writings because Eusebius of Caesarea labeled the monastic ascetic group of Therapeutae and Therapeutrides, described in Philo's The Contemplative Life, as Christians, which is highly unlikely. Eusebius also promoted the legend that Philo met Peter in Rome. Jerome even lists him as a church Father.

I have an extensive history of him somewhere which covers his travels.

Reference:

Philo of Alexandria. (n.d.). Retrieved from http://www.iep.utm.edu/philo/

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04-06-2016, 09:22 PM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(04-06-2016 07:29 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 06:12 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Why? Because we don't agree with you? If you actually bothered to read what many of us have written, you may realize that there is a point to be made. I have a feeling that you would accuse a group of people with evidence to support a claim of groupthink instead of pondering the argument. Have you ever even considered that you might be wrong?


He already told us he cannot image that. Rolleyes
He's actually said that he cannot handle the "suspended judgement" position of ''we don't know".

I know. I just want to keep making points for him to ignore. Who knows, the delusion may slip someday.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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04-06-2016, 10:52 PM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(04-06-2016 09:02 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 04:38 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Not surprising judging that Philo lived a couple hundred miles away in Alexandria, and dealt primarily with the political situation in Alexandria, and his own philosophical musings, and died around 50 C.E, long before Christianity was likely to reach Alexandria.

Blink

Facepalm

Philo of Alexandria 20 BCE to 40 CE
The early years of the Roman Republic is one of the most historically documented times in history. One of the writers alive during the time of Jesus was Philo-Judaeus (sometimes known as Philo of Alexandria).

Philo was born before the beginning of the Christian era, and lived until long after the reputed death of Christ. He wrote an account of the Jews covering the entire time that Christ is said to have existed on earth. He was living in or near Jerusalem when Christ’s miraculous birth and the Herodian massacre occurred. He was there when Christ made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem. He was there when the crucifixion happened with its attendant earthquake, supernatural darkness and resurrection of the dead took place – when Christ himself rose from the dead and in the presence of many witnesses ascended into heaven. These amazing marvelous events which must have filled the world with amazement, had they really occurred, were all unknown to him. It was Philo who developed the doctrine of the Logos, or Word, and although this Word incarnate dwelt in that very land and in the presence of multitudes revealed himself and demonstrated his divine powers, Philo saw it not, nor apparently even heard about any of it.

Philo might be considered the investigative reporter of his day. He was there on location during the early first century, talking with people who should have remembered or at least heard the stories, observed, taking notes, documenting. He reported nothing about Jesus.

Philo of Alexandria, a Hellenized Jew also called Judaeus Philo, is a figure that spans two cultures, the Greek, and the Hebrew. When Hebrew mythical thought met Greek philosophical thought in the first century B.C.E. it was only natural that someone would try to develop speculative and philosophical justification for Judaism in terms of Greek philosophy. Thus, Philo produced a synthesis of both traditions developing concepts for future Hellenistic interpretation of messianic Hebrew thought, especially by Clement of Alexandria, Christian Apologists like Athenagoras, Theophilus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and by Origen. He may have influenced Paul, his contemporary, and perhaps the authors of the Gospel of John and the Epistle to the Hebrews. In the process, he laid the foundations for the development of Christianity in the West and in the East, as we know it today. Philo's primary importance is in the development of the philosophical and theological foundations of Christianity. The church preserved the Philonic writings because Eusebius of Caesarea labeled the monastic ascetic group of Therapeutae and Therapeutrides, described in Philo's The Contemplative Life, as Christians, which is highly unlikely. Eusebius also promoted the legend that Philo met Peter in Rome. Jerome even lists him as a church Father.

I have an extensive history of him somewhere which covers his travels.

Reference:

Philo of Alexandria. (n.d.). Retrieved from http://www.iep.utm.edu/philo/

Look at you learning stuff

It is also interesting that Philo never mentioned the earthquake or zombies.

Tomasia shows as always his zero understanding of Rome, its history, bureaucracy and historians.

One read of Livy shows us that reports came into the senate from throughout the empire. It would then become newsworthy through the empire. A historian of Philo's experience and respect would hardly been ignored by such events.

Tomasia. Please do not speak about Rome. You have 0% knowledge regarding the subject. And it shows blatantly. You have already admitted on this forum to me on a thread that you do not know the period. Hence, you do not understand the xianity of the period also.

Here's another simple question.

Why did the pagans believe early xians were cannibals?

Don't Wiki it. Wink

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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05-06-2016, 07:59 AM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(04-06-2016 10:52 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Why did the pagans believe early xians were cannibals?

I have 5 saying he just ignores the question like usual. Any takers?

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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05-06-2016, 08:03 AM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
(05-06-2016 07:59 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 10:52 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Why did the pagans believe early xians were cannibals?

I have 5 saying he just ignores the question like usual. Any takers?

Only a sucker would take that bet Drinking Beverage

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05-06-2016, 08:05 AM
RE: About the Testimonium Flavium
The answer to the cannibal question, carries with it the the fact that by the time Christianity was cooked up, it was FAR later than thought. No Jew would countenance that practice.

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