Absolute
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20-05-2013, 03:45 PM
Absolute
Truth... Right and wrong.... Love.... Fear.

What were these things before this planet existed? Does this indicate that there is no "Absolute truth", no real "right or wrong" as these are merely creations of ours as a species?

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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20-05-2013, 04:39 PM
RE: Absolute
Same things they are now, until you open yer mouth about 'em. Big Grin

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20-05-2013, 05:02 PM
RE: Absolute
Fear, love, right and wrong and truths... I figure they didn't exist until sentient minds developed to perceive and create them, they are concepts and names after all, not physical things like planets or stars, those concepts are creations of the mind.

Though I do think there is an absolute truth.... But it's not "an" per se, more of "the". Naturally, it is absolute truth because it is complete knowledge of all things within and without this universe. It's not even a "the" really. Just an amalgamation of knowledge. Which of course is why I don't consider this level of truth to be attainable to anything. Too much information to store, simply physically impossible to accumulate.

But in answer to your question, I dare-say they did not exist before our planet and we could form, at least as far as we will ever be aware, there might be a sapient species who considered this very question, and experienced those very emotions millennia before the solar system formed, thus making them exist to them, but not us.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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20-05-2013, 05:59 PM
RE: Absolute
(20-05-2013 03:45 PM)bemore Wrote:  Truth... Right and wrong.... Love.... Fear.

What were these things before this planet existed? Does this indicate that there is no "Absolute truth", no real "right or wrong" as these are merely creations of ours as a species?

There is no absolute anything because everything always changes, and besides, everything is in the eyes of the beholder.

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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20-05-2013, 06:41 PM
RE: Absolute
Truth is not different according to the individual, and neither does absolute truth exist.

Truths and morals are relative to ones society that they grew up in.
Hence Hegels description of absolute knowledge vs absolute truth.



Next Drinking Beverage
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20-05-2013, 07:32 PM
RE: Absolute
Hey, Bemore.

The bottom line is that all of these things are constructed by the human mind and shared by/as culture.

That's the end of the simple answer.

By my own rationale, these constructs couldn't exist before humans, let alone the planet. But the thing that strikes me is that they are a part of the universe. They are phenomena. People create, store, share, contemplate, argue and alter truths, moralities, fears, etc... So they're natural. Something material is governing all of that. So the question is, can phenomena happen spontaneously ex-nilho in the universe (that is to say, did they simply not exist before the human mind could imagine them, as in, did wind not exist before the high and low pressure systems in our atmosphere), or were these things destined to happen, like gravity and electromagnetism and stars and planets, at the beginning of the universe, regardless of how we exploit them? Did it all pop out of thin air, or was it waiting for our brains to catch it, like flight was waiting for wings (accepting that there is a plurality of ways to generate lift)? For that matter, what was anything before the beginning?

I don't know.

The other mind blower is that if we imagine that there are other sentient organisms (or other as of yet inconceivable entities) we have to imagine that they will be different from us (unless universal panspermia is true and every organism in the universe comes from the same ancestor/design and all thought is fundamentally "alike"). So did this all exist in their minds before this planet? Who knows?

All I know is what they are now. What are they within the context of the Homo sapiens sapiens mind?

I've always been a firm believer in the notion of the phenotype: the result of the interaction of possibility and environment. What phenotype tells us is that the product is a result of the RELATIONSHIP of possibility and environment and not the mechanistic predetermined inevitability of just one.

So perhaps there are a finite number of possibilities (in terms of truth, morality, fears) allowed in the natural universe (in the same way that there is a finite spectrum of electromagnetic wavelengths) but near limitless phenotypes as they go through the wash of the reality of our cultural environment (much in the same way that we can do near limitless things with electromagnetic radiation, we can do near limitless things with truth and morality).

So that which is truthful, or moral, is not a preordained absolute, but rather the unique product of that which is possible and that which is experienced. There is an ocean of truth and morality and each of our cultures zeroes in on a single drop.

The indisputable truth is that any metric we use to judge truth, right/wrong, love/fear, is ARBITRARY. It is a judgement of a construct that we make based on the understanding of our own construct. To say it more formally, we cannot understand anything except through a process of mediation and we cannot understand that process of mediation except through another process of mediation. So no, there's no ABSOLUTE truth. There is only our construction.

I hope this makes sense, be cause this one hurt MY brain Cool

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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21-05-2013, 08:58 AM
RE: Absolute
(20-05-2013 07:32 PM)Ghost Wrote:  I've always been a firm believer in the notion of the phenotype: the result of the interaction of possibility and environment. What phenotype tells us is that the product is a result of the RELATIONSHIP of possibility and environment and not the mechanistic predetermined inevitability of just one.

QFT.

I was thinking (Gwynnies) vector atheism and the experience of being a prophet in terms of local entropic minima. Basically, the use of less words to express the truth of the moment. Which of course is a vector pointing towards stillness and void.

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21-05-2013, 08:59 AM
RE: Absolute
Right and wrong, love, and fear only exist as concepts and as such are dependent on there being an entity that is capable of feeling them. And if no entity exists that is capable of thought, then there is no such thing as truth either because the concept applies to statements or beliefs. If no being with a mind exists, truth does not exist because there are no statements or beliefs.

So yes; right and wrong, love, fear, and truth only exist because complex life does. They do not exist outside of the minds of animals.

If something can be destroyed by the truth, it might be worth destroying.

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21-05-2013, 11:02 AM
RE: Absolute
(21-05-2013 08:58 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  I was thinking (Gwynnies) vector atheism and the experience of being a prophet in terms of local entropic minima. Basically, the use of less words to express the truth of the moment. Which of course is a vector pointing towards stillness and void.

"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences; what others say in a whole book."
"He who has a why can endure any how."
"That which needs to be proved cannot be worth much."
"You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist."
"There is always some madness in love. But there is also always some reason in madness."
- Nietzsche

Fucking Johnny, putting Girly into a Nietszchean fugue state and shit. Tongue

Just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean there aren't people who should pray for their sorry ass to be saved.
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21-05-2013, 11:51 AM
RE: Absolute
(21-05-2013 08:59 AM)Elesjei Wrote:  Right and wrong, love, and fear only exist as concepts and as such are dependent on there being an entity that is capable of feeling them. And if no entity exists that is capable of thought, then there is no such thing as truth either because the concept applies to statements or beliefs. If no being with a mind exists, truth does not exist because there are no statements or beliefs.

So yes; right and wrong, love, fear, and truth only exist because complex life does. They do not exist outside of the minds of animals.

That.

My 3 cent addition might be some suspect rumination on these constructs being evolving adaptations ... which may either contribute or be a hinderance to the progress of the species' involved. As a cluster of living beings, we're only just now becoming familiar with the far-out idea that it might not be a good idea to murder each other. We're still a bunch of apes who're still just realizing that, that thing on our shoulders might do something other than eat and grow hair. Dodgy

Toss another million years into the equation and one might not even question the subjective nature of truth, love, fear, or any particular attribute the species human currently struggles with. Nature takes time and the equipment we've got ... I don't know that I would use the word imperfect nor would I use the word ideal. It's kind of all we've got to work with... so, I guess time will further inform us... always, at a much later date.

Or not. Drinking Beverage

That goddamn Bemore... always makin' the ape noggin think too much.

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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