Absolute Truth
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27-08-2012, 12:13 PM
RE: Absolute Truth
Sam Harris

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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27-08-2012, 12:14 PM
RE: Absolute Truth
(27-08-2012 09:31 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  "Fords are the best automobiles ever!"

This is called an opinion.

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27-08-2012, 12:47 PM
RE: Absolute Truth
What is objectively true is what is true.

What is subjective is either what is believed to be objectively true or not dealing with truth at all.

It's Knowledge vs. Belief. Fact vs. Opinion vs. Preference.

Objectivity covers facts and opinions. Subjectivity covers opinions and preferences.

Facts deal with objective truths that can be known. Opinions deal objective truths that are believed to be true; either with truths that can be known, with truths that are not known at the time, or with truths in debate about whether they can be known at all. Preferences are your personal feelings, emotions, perspective and desires.

Objectivity is wherever there is truth. It overlaps with subjectivity in opinions where personal feelings, emotions, perspective and desires (i.e. preferences), are interfering, in any way, with finding the objective truth. Subjectivity then, also, covers where there is no truth at all and just preference.

One could argue that "Fords are the best automobiles ever!" is subjective, but what is really subjective deals with "best". Just to pull something out of my ass, let's say best was fastest (top speed). That part might be considered subjective, but we can measure fastest and get an answer that would be objectively true, even if it was just one that you could call theoretical and pending. If we were looking for the "best" overall automobile, you would have to ask yourself if automobiles can be separated in such a way that one can be better than another objectively? Even if you could, due to the subjectivity of the criteria, at a certain point, one could argue that an objective truth might be practically unobtainable; but there would still be an objective truth, just one that couldn't be known. Or you could argue that there was just no truth at all: At that point, you might just say that "Fords are the best automobiles ever" was a statement equal to 'I prefer Fords to any other automobiles'.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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27-08-2012, 01:43 PM
RE: Absolute Truth
Subjective - exists in the mind.
Objective - exists independent of the mind.

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27-08-2012, 01:48 PM
RE: Absolute Truth
I will quibble, too.

There is an objective reality that we model in our minds. There are elements of it that are not culturally relative, for instance most of mathematics and physical science.

The mathematics describing the flow of air over a wing and the resultant lift are the same whether the airplane took off from New York, New Delhi, New Guinea, or Noumea. Pi is pi, e is e. Neutrons are neutrons. They are what they are.

Whether a culture understands f = ma or not, f = ma.

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27-08-2012, 01:50 PM
RE: Absolute Truth
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It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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27-08-2012, 01:56 PM (This post was last modified: 27-08-2012 02:14 PM by Ghost.)
RE: Absolute Truth
Fst.

<wipes mouth> you bastard </wipes mouth>

Erxomai.

I will find you! (Is it just me or does he look like the bastard love child of Morden from Babylon 5 and one of those troll dolls?

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Hey, Bucky.

Thanks, brother.

Yeah, I think we're saying the same thing. I'm comfortable sticking with perceive, sense would probably be more accurate, but what's actually happening is called signal transduction. Signal transduction is the mechanism, the cellular process, that all organisms use that allows them to react to signals, stimuli, by converting that signal into another signal.

Scientific American wrote a great article a few years back that touches on the difference you're alluding to.
Quote:When we speak of "symbolic processes" in the brain or in the mind, we are referring to our ability to abstract elements of our experience and to represent them with discrete mental symbols. Other species certainly possess consciousness in some sense, but as far as we know, they live in the world simply as it presents itself to them. Presumably, for them the environment seems very much like a continuum, rather than a place, like ours, that is divided into the huge number of separate elements to which we humans give individual names. By separating out its elements in this way, human beings are able constantly to re-create the world, and individual aspects of it, in their minds. And what makes this possible is the ability to form and to manipulate mental symbols that correspond to elements we perceive in the world within and beyond ourselves. Members of other species often display high levels of intuitive reasoning, reacting to stimuli from the environment in quite complex ways, by only human beings are able arbitrarily to combine and recombine mental symbols and to ask themselves questions such as "What if?"
-Scientific American

As for the rest, well, yeah, pretty much Smile

ON EDIT:

Hey, Chas.

I disagree for a couple of reasons.

Cultural understandings can overlap. There's nothing preventing ubiquity. So yeah, the math is the same, but not because it just is, but because people use the same system. For example, both French and English cultures adopted Arabic numerals, thus math is written using the same symbols. So both French and English cultures agree that 2+2=4. But English cultures think that "two plus two equals four", while French cultures think <<deux plus deux égale quatre>>. A very simple example of a larger reality, that even when cultures agree in principle, they can still see things differently.

The most important point is that 2 and 4 are not objective truths, they're culturally relative. You could just as well use II and IV. You could say eighty three, or you could say quatre vignt treize (which translates literally as 'four twenty thirteen').

A neutron is not a neutron. Neutron is a word we use to symbolically represent an abstracted concept of something. It is the sculpture, not the nude model, no matter how many people agree.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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27-08-2012, 01:58 PM
RE: Absolute Truth
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27-08-2012, 02:39 PM
RE: Absolute Truth
(27-08-2012 01:56 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Chas.

I disagree for a couple of reasons.

Cultural understandings can overlap. There's nothing preventing ubiquity. So yeah, the math is the same, but not because it just is, but because people use the same system. For example, both French and English cultures adopted Arabic numerals, thus math is written using the same symbols. So both French and English cultures agree that 2+2=4. But English cultures think that "two plus two equals four", while French cultures think <<deux plus deux égale quatre>>. A very simple example of a larger reality, that even when cultures agree in principle, they can still see things differently.

The most important point is that 2 and 4 are not objective truths, they're culturally relative. You could just as well use II and IV. You could say eighty three, or you could say quatre vignt treize (which translates literally as 'four twenty thirteen').

A neutron is not a neutron. Neutron is a word we use to symbolically represent an abstracted concept of something. It is the sculpture, not the nude model, no matter how many people agree.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

I should have expanded on it a bit (damned terseness!). It's not the symbols - it's the math; it's not the text, it's the meaning. 2+2=4 no matter how you write it. Don't go post-modern on me.

The shape of the wing provides the same lift no matter who designed it. Whatever a neutron is, that's what it is. There are things that do neutrony kinds of things regardless of what our model or understanding is.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-08-2012, 02:47 PM
RE: Absolute Truth
(27-08-2012 02:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  2+2=4 no matter how you write it.

if you have a 3 number set {0,1,2} and a plus b := (a + b) mod 3 where + is the usual addition then 2 plus 2 = 1 Smartass
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