Acupuncture: Real or Fake
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31-12-2014, 04:17 PM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
(31-12-2014 03:39 PM)smileXsmileXsmile Wrote:  @Free Thought:
As I continued researching, I saw the "Science Based Medicine" article. It's all placebo. Which shit I mean if placebo works, cool ...i guess lol

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/acup...esnt-work/

'tis why I linked it.

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31-12-2014, 05:26 PM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
It being a placebo means realistically it is equivalent to doing nothing. In other words, the mind fools itself, and that's not good practice for a doctor to be dishonest about the efficacy of some treatment.

Chi is bullshit. Trigger points are bullshit. It's no more effective than poking the skin with toothpicks.
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01-01-2015, 08:37 AM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
I don't care if the cure for pain, or any other ailment, is a placebo effect, or a cure based on medical science. In fact, I'll take a placebo cure over having to spend countless hours and lots of money at numerous doctor visits.

Acupuncture is a very powerful medical tool, in the right hands.

I have my own electro-acupuncture stimulation device at home. I have tried it for several different health problems. It has helped to relieve my neck pain and my sinus problems, but it has failed to help my shingles or my drop foot or my asthma. If the curative effect of my electro-acupuncture sessions is a placebo effect, I just wish I could get a placebo effect curing ALL of my health problems and not just a select few.

However... I guess the answer is: If you have a health problem, especially a painful one, and you don't want it cured with acupuncture, then use conventional medicine in search of a cure. You have the freedom to chose.

Is there free will in Heaven? Do "souls" age in Heaven? What if you get to Heaven, for an eternity, and find it boring and tedious and torturous, especially without booze or sex? And... what if you can't get along with God?
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01-01-2015, 09:13 AM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
(01-01-2015 08:37 AM)Machaon Wrote:  I don't care if the cure for pain, or any other ailment, is a placebo effect, or a cure based on medical science. In fact, I'll take a placebo cure over having to spend countless hours and lots of money at numerous doctor visits.

Acupuncture is a very powerful medical tool, in the right hands.

I have my own electro-acupuncture stimulation device at home. I have tried it for several different health problems. It has helped to relieve my neck pain and my sinus problems, but it has failed to help my shingles or my drop foot or my asthma. If the curative effect of my electro-acupuncture sessions is a placebo effect, I just wish I could get a placebo effect curing ALL of my health problems and not just a select few.

However... I guess the answer is: If you have a health problem, especially a painful one, and you don't want it cured with acupuncture, then use conventional medicine in search of a cure. You have the freedom to chose.

That's like saying "I don't care if my religion is true, so long as it prevent me from being an alcoholic." Dodgy

Which incendently goes over just about as well as you'd expect on an atheist forum, as skeptics and non-believers tend to overlap quite a bit.

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01-01-2015, 09:16 AM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
(01-01-2015 08:37 AM)Machaon Wrote:  I don't care if the cure for pain, or any other ailment, is a placebo effect, or a cure based on medical science. In fact, I'll take a placebo cure over having to spend countless hours and lots of money at numerous doctor visits.

Acupuncture is a very powerful medical tool, in the right hands.

I have my own electro-acupuncture stimulation device at home. I have tried it for several different health problems. It has helped to relieve my neck pain and my sinus problems, but it has failed to help my shingles or my drop foot or my asthma. If the curative effect of my electro-acupuncture sessions is a placebo effect, I just wish I could get a placebo effect curing ALL of my health problems and not just a select few.

However... I guess the answer is: If you have a health problem, especially a painful one, and you don't want it cured with acupuncture, then use conventional medicine in search of a cure. You have the freedom to chose.

Acupuncture can cure nothing. Nada. Zip.

The placebo effect treats symptoms.

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01-01-2015, 09:17 AM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
(31-12-2014 02:08 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  The NHS has an article on the subject claiming that acupuncture is reasonably effective on conditions like lower back pain, migraines and tension headaches, which also noting the the evidence is inconsistent thanks to 'difficulty testing'.

Science Based Medicine has concluded that it doesn't work at all.

The Skeptic's Dictionaryhas a fairly in depth and wide article on the subject.

I don't particularly find the evidence for acupuncture convincing; I figure it probably is placebo doing all the work, given the effectiveness of fake acupuncture relative to the 'real' procedure.
But, I'm no doctor, nor scientician.


Props for Science Based Medicine, as Steven Novella is one of the hosts of one of my favorite pod-casts, The Skeptics Guide to the Universe.

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01-01-2015, 09:19 AM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
(01-01-2015 09:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  Acupuncture can cure nothing. Nada. Zip.

The placebo effect treats symptoms.

And therein lies one of it's greatest dangers. Seeking placebo relief from symptoms doesn't treat the cause, and causes left untreated can quickly deteriorate.

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01-01-2015, 10:24 AM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
(01-01-2015 09:13 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  That's like saying "I don't care if my religion is true, so long as it prevent me from being an alcoholic."

If a personal problem is solved, without bringing harm to others, then the solution is well worthwhile, whether the solution if faith based or based on alternative medicine.

I've been an Atheist since I was a kid, and I am now 70. If I could become young again, through religion, I would gladly do it. I would believe that elephants could fly or that most religious leaders were not opportunist scammers, if it would make me 20 again.

My alternatives are to use things like electro-acupuncture, or my own health solutions, or my own SLIT experiments, to keep this old, worn-out heap of muscle and bone functional! Drooling

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01-01-2015, 10:50 AM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
(01-01-2015 09:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(01-01-2015 08:37 AM)Machaon Wrote:  I don't care if the cure for pain, or any other ailment, is a placebo effect, or a cure based on medical science. In fact, I'll take a placebo cure over having to spend countless hours and lots of money at numerous doctor visits.

Acupuncture is a very powerful medical tool, in the right hands.

I have my own electro-acupuncture stimulation device at home. I have tried it for several different health problems. It has helped to relieve my neck pain and my sinus problems, but it has failed to help my shingles or my drop foot or my asthma. If the curative effect of my electro-acupuncture sessions is a placebo effect, I just wish I could get a placebo effect curing ALL of my health problems and not just a select few.

However... I guess the answer is: If you have a health problem, especially a painful one, and you don't want it cured with acupuncture, then use conventional medicine in search of a cure. You have the freedom to chose.

Acupuncture can cure nothing. Nada. Zip.

The placebo effect treats symptoms.

Yeah, I know it's placebo effect. I totally understand this but it's the one goofy woo thing I do.

It relaxes me which allows my muscles to relax which allows the muscles to heal and the pain to subside. It's also the soft music they play, the nice calm room, the soothing colors of the walls, the little water fountain tinkling in the corner, the attention one receives and the emotions being stilled.

It's just a super nice experience and it releases some nice chemicals in the brain.

I like it. So there.

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01-01-2015, 10:54 AM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
(01-01-2015 09:19 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  And therein lies one of it's greatest dangers. Seeking placebo relief from symptoms doesn't treat the cause, and causes left untreated can quickly deteriorate.

It is not always important to find the cause, especially when it comes to pain.

In my wife's case, she had major ear surgery when she was young. Prior to the ear surgery, she seldom had headaches. After the ear surgery, she suffered from nasty headaches 24 hours per day. This lasted for years, through frustrating visits to doctors and specialists. Noone and nothing could help. We finally went to a special, experimental acupuncture health clinic associated with the University of Miami, where her nasty, 24 hour headaches were cured using acupuncture, and have stayed cured for over 40 years.

Should I bitch about the cure because it might be placebo, or because I don't fully understand the cause of her pain? Hmmm!? I think that I will ask my wife how she feels about the cure. Consider

Is there free will in Heaven? Do "souls" age in Heaven? What if you get to Heaven, for an eternity, and find it boring and tedious and torturous, especially without booze or sex? And... what if you can't get along with God?
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