Acupuncture: Real or Fake
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02-01-2015, 11:32 AM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
(01-01-2015 02:21 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Isn't that a TENS machine? Transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation.


I purchased the machine through a Chinese acupuncture company, along with electro-pads and needles. I prefer to use the electro-pads because I don't have to be exact in locating the acupuncture points. In fact, I can treat multiple points with one electro-pad.

I've never used the needles, although I have had acupuncture treatments where they have used the needles.

I LOVE having the thing available. It allows me to reduce my exposure to our broken, badly working, expensive, time-consuming medical system. It doesn't provide a cure all the time, but once in a while it really surprises me! Blink

I hope that smileXsmileXsmile is finding this discussion helpful. OTOH, he is probably sorry that he started the thread! Gasp

Is there free will in Heaven? Do "souls" age in Heaven? What if you get to Heaven, for an eternity, and find it boring and tedious and torturous, especially without booze or sex? And... what if you can't get along with God?
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02-01-2015, 12:01 PM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
... Why would he be sorry? He wanted information about acupuncture.
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02-01-2015, 02:36 PM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
(01-01-2015 09:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(01-01-2015 08:37 AM)Machaon Wrote:  I don't care if the cure for pain, or any other ailment, is a placebo effect, or a cure based on medical science. In fact, I'll take a placebo cure over having to spend countless hours and lots of money at numerous doctor visits.

Acupuncture is a very powerful medical tool, in the right hands.

I have my own electro-acupuncture stimulation device at home. I have tried it for several different health problems. It has helped to relieve my neck pain and my sinus problems, but it has failed to help my shingles or my drop foot or my asthma. If the curative effect of my electro-acupuncture sessions is a placebo effect, I just wish I could get a placebo effect curing ALL of my health problems and not just a select few.

However... I guess the answer is: If you have a health problem, especially a painful one, and you don't want it cured with acupuncture, then use conventional medicine in search of a cure. You have the freedom to chose.

Acupuncture can cure nothing. Nada. Zip.

The placebo effect treats symptoms.


There is no cure for some pain. Many people just want the pain to subside for a while. They want a momentary rest from the aching.

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02-01-2015, 03:03 PM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
(02-01-2015 11:32 AM)Machaon Wrote:  
(01-01-2015 02:21 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Isn't that a TENS machine? Transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation.


I purchased the machine through a Chinese acupuncture company, along with electro-pads and needles. I prefer to use the electro-pads because I don't have to be exact in locating the acupuncture points. In fact, I can treat multiple points with one electro-pad.

I've never used the needles, although I have had acupuncture treatments where they have used the needles.

I LOVE having the thing available. It allows me to reduce my exposure to our broken, badly working, expensive, time-consuming medical system. It doesn't provide a cure all the time, but once in a while it really surprises me! Blink

I hope that smileXsmileXsmile is finding this discussion helpful. OTOH, he is probably sorry that he started the thread! Gasp

It might be helpful if you were posting about acupuncture instead of electric stim.
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03-01-2015, 05:40 PM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
I guess if the ritual of acupuncture helps... by all means go for it.

However, I don't see any difference between acupuncture as a medicine and the native americans burning sage as a medicine, from a scientific point of view.

It's all placebo and placebo doesn't cut it for me; but placebo is very powerful. Look at what church does. God's a placebo. You have every right to be superstitious with acupuncture, or even have the imaginary friend of jesus.

I say that with the least disrespect to a fellow atheist Wink Smile


   

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05-01-2015, 09:43 AM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
(02-01-2015 03:03 PM)Rik Wrote:  It might be helpful if you were posting about acupuncture instead of electric stim.

Electric stimulation of Acupuncture points is the best method for activating Acupuncture points, IMHO.

Even when using the needles, which is just one method of Acupuncture, many doctors will electronically stimulate the points, via the needles.

The Chinese, when they were developing Acupuncture thousands of years ago didn't think to use electronic stimulation to activate the points, Facepalm they used heat, or massage or suction, etc. Perhaps there was an electrical outage or shortage back then!? Big Grin

Is there free will in Heaven? Do "souls" age in Heaven? What if you get to Heaven, for an eternity, and find it boring and tedious and torturous, especially without booze or sex? And... what if you can't get along with God?
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05-01-2015, 09:50 AM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
(05-01-2015 09:43 AM)Machaon Wrote:  
(02-01-2015 03:03 PM)Rik Wrote:  It might be helpful if you were posting about acupuncture instead of electric stim.

Electric stimulation of Acupuncture points is the best method for activating Acupuncture points, IMHO.

Even when using the needles, which is just one method of Acupuncture, many doctors will electronically stimulate the points, via the needles.

The Chinese, when they were developing Acupuncture thousands of years ago didn't think to use electronic stimulation to activate the points, Facepalm they used heat, or massage or suction, etc. Perhaps there was an electrical outage or shortage back then!? Big Grin

Please cite scientific evidence for the existence of "Acupuncture points".

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-01-2015, 09:59 AM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
The needles they prod you with are indeed real. Don't be fooled to think they're movie props

The Ancu-points are along the lines of the chakra that flows... which is nothing, they happen to be somewhat similar to how nervous systems and blood streams flow so it's clearly where they came form in ancient times. There are areas of the brain that connect to similar spots, like feet/genitals but any ideas that poking a needle in a foot at the right spot can fix your back or rejuvenate your junk aren't valid.

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05-01-2015, 10:02 AM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
(03-01-2015 05:40 PM)smileXsmileXsmile Wrote:  I guess if the ritual of acupuncture helps... by all means go for it.

Thanks, I will continue to attempt to use at-home Acupuncture to address health issues, when appropriate.

I love being able to depend upon myself and my own resourcefulness, rather then depending upon our expensive, time-consuming, broken medical-care system.

Quote: However, I don't see any difference between acupuncture as a medicine and the native americans burning sage as a medicine, from a scientific point of view.

I don't understand Acupuncture at all. I have no idea why it works. I only know that it does work, and it works very well.

Quote:It's all placebo and placebo doesn't cut it for me; but placebo is very powerful. Look at what church does. God's a placebo. You have every right to be superstitious with acupuncture, or even have the imaginary friend of jesus.

Superstitious? When I have a reason to use Acupuncture, I first use my handy-dandy Acupuncture software to research appropriate Acupuncture points. I select the points that seem to fit my problem the best, then wire myself up and then stimulate the points. If it works and improves the condition, it surprises the hell out of me, but is very gratifying. I love solving problems my way!

My Acupuncture electronic stimulation machine has paid for itself many times over.

Quote:I say that with the least disrespect to a fellow atheist Wink Smile

Hmmmm!? Now... why doesn't that give me a warm and fuzzy feeling? Consider

Is there free will in Heaven? Do "souls" age in Heaven? What if you get to Heaven, for an eternity, and find it boring and tedious and torturous, especially without booze or sex? And... what if you can't get along with God?
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05-01-2015, 10:27 AM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
I suggest you don't call your machine an Acupuncture machine. It is not. It is either a TENS machine or an Interferential machine by your description. These machines have nothing to do with acupuncture and any connection being made by your Chinese acupuncture company is unfounded. You are adding false legitimacy to acupuncture by crediting acupuncture with any relief you are feeling with this machine.

I cannot comment on the scientific legitimacy of TENS. I'm aware of anecdotal accounts of good results but I don't have good references. I am aware of these machines being used by physiotherapists. The machines use nerve stimulation and are intended to work either due to this direct stimulation or due to the activation of muscle contractions triggered by these stimulations.

At a prima facie level this proposed mechanism is at least plausible, as nerves and muscles exist. However, acupuncture points do not exist. "Placebo acupuncture" performed either with fake (retracting needles) or real needles placed in non-acupuncture sites are as effective at reducing chronic pain symptoms as "real acupuncture". Moreover, acupuncture's overall effect is negative rather than positive. Symptoms are not significantly improved after using it. See the links already posted in this thread.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcutane...timulation

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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