Acupuncture: Real or Fake
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05-01-2015, 11:04 AM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
(05-01-2015 10:27 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  I suggest you don't call your machine an Acupuncture machine. It is not. It is either a TENS machine or an Interferential machine by your description. These machines have nothing to do with acupuncture and any connection being made by your Chinese acupuncture company is unfounded. You are adding false legitimacy to acupuncture by crediting acupuncture with any relief you are feeling with this machine.

The KWD-808 is a standard Acupuncture machine, used by Acupuncture specialists all over the world. It is sold by many MANY retail outlets as an Acupuncture machine. It can also be used for transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation (TENS).

It comes with a method for detecting Acupuncture points. It can be used with Acupuncture needles, or electronic stimulation pads or electronic stimulation clips that you attach to the needles.

When you research the KWD-808, you see it advertised all over the place primarily as an Acupuncture device, not a TENS unit.

In order to get me to stop referring to it as an Acupuncture device, you would first have to stop the many retail outlets all over the world that advertise it as an Acupuncture machine.

Quote:However, acupuncture points do not exist. "Placebo acupuncture" performed either with fake (retracting needles) or real needles placed in non-acupuncture sites are as effective at reducing chronic pain symptoms as "real acupuncture". Moreover, acupuncture's overall effect is negative rather than positive. Symptoms are not significantly improved after using it. See the links already posted in this thread.

Acupuncture is not only used to cure human disease all over the world, but also on animals. It is used frequently and successfully on animals, in zoos and at veterinarians.

I guess the only way to keep the placebo effect from effecting animals is to blindfold them or get them drunk prior to performing Acupuncture on them. Unsure

Both my wife and I have experienced significant positive results from Acupuncture treatments. We have witnessed dramatic positive results from Acupuncture. For us, it was a life saver and has provided wonderful results. I can not say enough about how thankful that we are to the University of Miami medical center for providing Acupuncture treatments.

But, I don't expect anyone else to take our word for it, or to try Acupuncture for themselves, unless they also believe in it's extraordinary benefits and power to heal.

Is there free will in Heaven? Do "souls" age in Heaven? What if you get to Heaven, for an eternity, and find it boring and tedious and torturous, especially without booze or sex? And... what if you can't get along with God?
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05-01-2015, 11:14 AM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
(05-01-2015 11:04 AM)Machaon Wrote:  But, I don't expect anyone else to take our word for it, or to try Acupuncture for themselves, unless they also believe in it's extraordinary benefits and power to heal.

Well, that pretty much sums it up. One has to believe. Facepalm

How about peer-reviewed, randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind studies and clinical trials?

And how about you provide some actual citations for your claims. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-01-2015, 11:37 AM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
(05-01-2015 11:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  Well, that pretty much sums it up. One has to believe. Facepalm

Semantics...?

Believing is not always a four letter word. For instance, if one believes that food is necessary for life, then eat, otherwise don't eat. "Belief" is not always associated with spirituality.

Quote:How about peer-reviewed, randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind studies and clinical trials?

I'm only offering anecdotal feedback. I have nothing to gain, or lose, if others are interested in trying Acupuncture for health problems, either for themselves or their pets. Just thought my comments, and significantly effective results from Acupuncture, might be interesting to others.

Quote:And how about you provide some actual citations for your claims. Drinking Beverage

Censored

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05-01-2015, 12:20 PM (This post was last modified: 05-01-2015 12:23 PM by dancefortwo.)
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
(05-01-2015 11:37 AM)Machaon Wrote:  
(05-01-2015 11:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  Well, that pretty much sums it up. One has to believe. Facepalm

Semantics...?

Believing is not always a four letter word. For instance, if one believes that food is necessary for life, then eat, otherwise don't eat. "Belief" is not always associated with spirituality.

Quote:How about peer-reviewed, randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind studies and clinical trials?

I'm only offering anecdotal feedback. I have nothing to gain, or lose, if others are interested in trying Acupuncture for health problems, either for themselves or their pets. Just thought my comments, and significantly effective results from Acupuncture, might be interesting to others.

Quote:And how about you provide some actual citations for your claims. Drinking Beverage

Censored

That's NOT a acupuncture machine. It is a TENS machine. Acupuncture does what is says, it punctures needles into the skin. The TENS machine uses electrical currents to send a pulse into the muscle. I have one. My husband went to a physical therapist (who was also a doctor) that used one when he broke both his elbow in a bicycle accident. It does stimulate the muscle which seems to send signals to the brain which reduces the pain. All pain comes from the brain and TENS seems to allow the brain to scramble the pain.

There are studies which show that it does reduce pain. It won't cure the pain but easing the pain is what most people want when they get older.

Here is a study....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2746624/

Capsaicin, the chemical from hot peppers also does something sort of similar.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3169333/

But anyway, TENS is not acupuncture.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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05-01-2015, 01:45 PM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
(05-01-2015 12:20 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  That's NOT a acupuncture machine. It is a TENS machine.

It is sold and marketed and packaged and equipped as an Acupuncture machine, and I use it as an Acupuncture machine. It has an Acupuncture point locater. I don't use the locater. It is a lot easier to take a electro-pad and cover the entire area around the point.

Quote:Acupuncture does what is says, it punctures needles into the skin.

The name Acupuncture has been around for thousands of years, long before electricity. The name should be changed to Acu-stimulate, in order to make everyone happy. The importance of Acupuncture is to stimulate the points and the meridians, in order to effect a metabolic reset in the body. It doesn't matter how the stimulation is done, as long as the points are stimulated.

Quote:But anyway, TENS is not acupuncture.

At least we agree on something! Wink

As far as I know, this Acupuncture machine can also be used as a TENS machine, although it cannot use TENS wires because the plugs are the wrong size for this Acupuncture machine.

It has relieved my neck pain (2 crushed disks), and has improved my sinus condition. It did not seem to help my Permanent AFib, or my Asthma or my Shingles or my Drop Foot or help to make me grow younger rather than older, but I still have time to work on that! Thumbsup

Is there free will in Heaven? Do "souls" age in Heaven? What if you get to Heaven, for an eternity, and find it boring and tedious and torturous, especially without booze or sex? And... what if you can't get along with God?
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05-01-2015, 03:02 PM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
(05-01-2015 01:45 PM)Machaon Wrote:  
(05-01-2015 12:20 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  That's NOT a acupuncture machine. It is a TENS machine.

It is sold and marketed and packaged and equipped as an Acupuncture machine, and I use it as an Acupuncture machine. It has an Acupuncture point locater. I don't use the locater. It is a lot easier to take a electro-pad and cover the entire area around the point.

Quote:Acupuncture does what is says, it punctures needles into the skin.

The name Acupuncture has been around for thousands of years, long before electricity. The name should be changed to Acu-stimulate, in order to make everyone happy. The importance of Acupuncture is to stimulate the points and the meridians, in order to effect a metabolic reset in the body. It doesn't matter how the stimulation is done, as long as the points are stimulated.

Quote:But anyway, TENS is not acupuncture.

At least we agree on something! Wink

As far as I know, this Acupuncture machine can also be used as a TENS machine, although it cannot use TENS wires because the plugs are the wrong size for this Acupuncture machine.

It has relieved my neck pain (2 crushed disks), and has improved my sinus condition. It did not seem to help my Permanent AFib, or my Asthma or my Shingles or my Drop Foot or help to make me grow younger rather than older, but I still have time to work on that! Thumbsup


It shouldn't be sold as an Acupuncture machine. Unless it pierces the skin it's a TENS. The Chi points in acupuncture is a bunch of hooey. When my husband broke his elbows in a bicycle accident the physical therapist used a TENS machine on the muscles near his elbow. It had nothing to do with Chi and all that. The muscle is contracted and released, contracted and released with each pulse so it's an actual physical stimulation.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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06-01-2015, 09:02 AM (This post was last modified: 06-01-2015 01:51 PM by Machaon.)
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
(05-01-2015 03:02 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  It shouldn't be sold as an Acupuncture machine.

You are arguing with the wrong person. I have no control over how the Acupuncture device is marketed and sold. I have no control over the countless thousands, of patients, physicians and veterinarians, who use the KWD-808 Acupuncture device to stimulate Acupuncture points and heal either humans or animals.

Quote:Unless it pierces the skin it's a TENS.

I haven't used the Acupuncture needles that come with the device. I prefer to stimulate the points with the electro-pads. One can either use needles, needles and electro-stimulation (best choice) or just the electro-stimulation.

Quote:The Chi points in acupuncture is a bunch of hooey.

Once again, you are arguing with the wrong person. You need to argue with the countless thousands of patients, both human and animal, who have benefited greatly from Acupuncture.

Acupuncture is a world-wide, recognized and proven, effective medical treatment. It has been a life-saver for my family. After I saw the effectiveness and exactness of Acupuncture, done by a competent doctor, I had to purchase my own Acupuncture device. I did not look to purchase a TENS unit, I sought to purchase an Acupuncture device, and I am very happy with the purchase.

Best of luck and health!

Is there free will in Heaven? Do "souls" age in Heaven? What if you get to Heaven, for an eternity, and find it boring and tedious and torturous, especially without booze or sex? And... what if you can't get along with God?
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06-01-2015, 11:34 AM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
(06-01-2015 09:02 AM)Machaon Wrote:  Acupuncture is a world-wide, recognized and proven, effective medical treatment. It has been a life-saver for my family. After I saw the effectiveness and exactness of Acupuncture, done by a competent doctor, I had to purchase my own Acupuncture device. I did not look to purchase a TENS unit, I sought to purchase an Acupuncture device, and I am very happy with the purchase.

Controlled studies have shown that acupuncture is no more effective than a placebo.

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06-01-2015, 12:34 PM (This post was last modified: 06-01-2015 12:40 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
(06-01-2015 09:02 AM)Machaon Wrote:  Acupuncture is a world-wide, recognized and proven, effective medical treatment.

Complete unfettered bullshit.

World wide? No.

Recognized and proven? No, not even by the most liberal interpretation.

Effective? About as effective as homeopathy, which is to say, not at all.

Puncturing the Acupuncture Myth BY HARRIET HALL, M.D. - Skeptic.com

Acupuncture works in the same manner that placebos work. It has been shown to “work” to relieve pain, nausea, and other subjective symptoms, but it has never been shown to alter the natural history or course of any disease. Today it’s mostly used for pain, but early Chinese acupuncturists maintained that it was not for the treatment of manifest disease, that it was so subtle that it should only be employed at the very beginning of a disease process, and that it was only likely to work if the patient believed it would work. Now there’s a bit of ancient wisdom!
Studies have shown that acupuncture releases natural opioid pain relievers in the brain: endorphins. Veterinarians have pointed out that loading a horse into a trailer or throwing a stick for a dog also releases endorphins. Probably hitting yourself on the thumb with a hammer would release endorphins too, and it would take your mind off your headache.





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06-01-2015, 01:45 PM
RE: Acupuncture: Real or Fake
(06-01-2015 11:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-01-2015 09:02 AM)Machaon Wrote:  Acupuncture is a world-wide, recognized and proven, effective medical treatment. It has been a life-saver for my family. After I saw the effectiveness and exactness of Acupuncture, done by a competent doctor, I had to purchase my own Acupuncture device. I did not look to purchase a TENS unit, I sought to purchase an Acupuncture device, and I am very happy with the purchase.

Controlled studies have shown that acupuncture is no more effective than a placebo.

I did cite a science abstract regarding the TENS in my above post but TENS doesn't go with some woo-hoo Chi thing. It sends slight electric current pulses into the muscle and the surrounding areas that are hurting and relaxes the area that's inflamed. Physical therapists use them.

I have one and it actually does work. It's not a cure but it allows the muscle to relax which eases the pain.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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