Acupuncture...why is this supported?
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29-09-2015, 01:11 PM
RE: Acupuncture...why is this supported?
(29-09-2015 12:51 PM)julep Wrote:  I hope researchers can someday find a way to tap into the placebo effect that doesn't force patients to be deceived--or to shell out a bunch of money.

Unfortunately it's kind of dependent on the patient expecting it to work. I don't know if it's worth letting people be deceived by acupuncture so that they can get pain relief. I guess most people don't really care if it's real or not as long as it "works". I would say the lasers are different and not part of the Chinese woo nonsense, but the science is still super sketchy.

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29-09-2015, 01:37 PM
RE: Acupuncture...why is this supported?
I've had acupuncture and it did work. Part of what happens, from what I've read, is that it releases endorphins in the brain which curb the pain.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15135942

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29-09-2015, 01:38 PM
RE: Acupuncture...why is this supported?
I wouldn't say that acupuncture is entirely a placebo effect.
It is commonly used to treat horses

The fact that TCM (traditional Chinese medicine) seems like "woo" in the west is not a valid reason to dismiss it. Just because Western science can't explain a biological process right now does not mean that it should be dismissed out-of-hand as a placebo.
We may find an explanation in future.

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29-09-2015, 01:47 PM
RE: Acupuncture...why is this supported?
(29-09-2015 01:38 PM)Reducetarian Wrote:  I wouldn't say that acupuncture is entirely a placebo effect.
It is commonly used to treat horses

The fact that TCM (traditional Chinese medicine) seems like "woo" in the west is not a valid reason to dismiss it. Just because Western science can't explain a biological process right now does not mean that it should be dismissed out-of-hand as a placebo.
We may find an explanation in future.

I think part of the woo is the Qi or chi, and all the special pressure points. That part is silly. But the very fine needles no matter where they're stuck do seem to release endorphins in the brain similar to a runner's high except without all the running effort and pounding of the feet.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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29-09-2015, 02:20 PM
RE: Acupuncture...why is this supported?
Well I guess I'll stay open to it until we get some evidence for how it may or may not work. For every study in support there seems to be one that says it's bogus.

A man should not believe in an ism, he should believe in himself. -Ferris Bueller

That's what a ship is, you know. It's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs but what a ship is... what the Black Pearl really is... is freedom. -Jack Sparrow
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29-09-2015, 02:32 PM
RE: Acupuncture...why is this supported?
(29-09-2015 01:38 PM)Reducetarian Wrote:  The fact that TCM (traditional Chinese medicine) seems like "woo" in the west is not a valid reason to dismiss it. Just because Western science can't explain a biological process right now does not mean that it should be dismissed out-of-hand as a placebo.
We may find an explanation in future.

It's not so much that any particular "alternative" medical treatment merely posits unexplained effects, it's that so many of them require rejecting the foundational premises of modern science and medicine.

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29-09-2015, 02:38 PM
RE: Acupuncture...why is this supported?
(29-09-2015 01:38 PM)Reducetarian Wrote:  I wouldn't say that acupuncture is entirely a placebo effect.
It is commonly used to treat horses

The fact that TCM (traditional Chinese medicine) seems like "woo" in the west is not a valid reason to dismiss it. Just because Western science can't explain a biological process right now does not mean that it should be dismissed out-of-hand as a placebo.
We may find an explanation in future.

It's not so much that it seems like woo, there was supposed to be some kind of life force or qi or whatever. That's what the ancient Chinese thought. Then it somehow morphed into "stimulating the nerves," but I haven't found a reasonable explanation of how that works.

A man should not believe in an ism, he should believe in himself. -Ferris Bueller

That's what a ship is, you know. It's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs but what a ship is... what the Black Pearl really is... is freedom. -Jack Sparrow
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29-09-2015, 02:47 PM
RE: Acupuncture...why is this supported?
(29-09-2015 01:11 PM)Imathinker Wrote:  
(29-09-2015 12:51 PM)julep Wrote:  I hope researchers can someday find a way to tap into the placebo effect that doesn't force patients to be deceived--or to shell out a bunch of money.

Unfortunately it's kind of dependent on the patient expecting it to work. I don't know if it's worth letting people be deceived by acupuncture so that they can get pain relief. I guess most people don't really care if it's real or not as long as it "works". I would say the lasers are different and not part of the Chinese woo nonsense, but the science is still super sketchy.

I've read about research that suggests that the placebo effect can actually be maintained in people who know they are taking a placebo--if they're told so after several experiences with it. That's not enough for me to let someone stick needles in me, especially needles that are used on other customers, but I do hope that someday, we'll be able to understand and use the brain processes that generate the effect.
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29-09-2015, 02:55 PM (This post was last modified: 29-09-2015 03:04 PM by Imathinker.)
RE: Acupuncture...why is this supported?
I had never heard of that, Julep. By the sound of it that could be a possibility, which is good because the placebo can be pretty strong.

Wow the placebo is really weird, this is what you were talking about probably
http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-med...e-placebos

A man should not believe in an ism, he should believe in himself. -Ferris Bueller

That's what a ship is, you know. It's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs but what a ship is... what the Black Pearl really is... is freedom. -Jack Sparrow
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29-09-2015, 05:39 PM
RE: Acupuncture...why is this supported?
(29-09-2015 09:43 AM)Imathinker Wrote:  Apparently acupuncture will help relieve pain, but good studies show it to be the placebo effect in action, so why don't medical professionals just say that?

Medical professionals are not usually scientists.

Really.

I am currently going to a pain management clinic. Among their treatments, they offer Reiki. Facepalm

I can hardly wait until they bring that up with me. Laugh out load

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