Adam and Eve
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09-01-2016, 06:09 AM
RE: Adam and Eve
(08-01-2016 05:19 PM)Zen Wrote:  Why did God give Adam and Eve the option to take the apple? Why did he give them the free will to commit a 'sin'?
It makes no sense.

Because like many bad parents, he set his children up to fail to prove his superiority.

The most telling thing about the bible is the awful people that it took to write it and rewrite it.

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09-01-2016, 07:14 AM
RE: Adam and Eve
“Your God person puts an apple tree in the middle of a garden and says, do what you like, guys, oh, but don't eat the apple. Surprise surprise, they eat it and he leaps out from behind a bush shouting "Gotcha". It wouldn't have made any difference if they hadn't eaten it.'

'Why not?'

'Because if you're dealing with somebody who has the sort of mentality which likes leaving hats on the pavement with bricks under them you know perfectly well they won't give up. They'll get you in the end.”

― Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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09-01-2016, 07:17 AM
RE: Adam and Eve
It was all part of his perfect plan. He had to make beings he knew would give into the temptation he left for them, having no knowledge of good or evil. This would allow him to make people's lives miserable for a few thousand years, to punish his chosen people whenever they tuned away from him... or you know... performed a census or anything like that.

Eventually this would give him the chance to sacrifice himself to himself to quell his divine and perfect anger over the people he made doing what he made them to do. So now a tiny tiny fraction of the people he loves as children can go to heaven and worship him for eternity will the vast majority of people who ever lived will be tortured forever in hell... as per God's perfect mercy and his perfect plan.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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09-01-2016, 08:35 PM
RE: Adam and Eve
(09-01-2016 04:36 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(08-01-2016 05:37 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Because life outside the garden had to be their choice. Like you said, free will.


It's still a bum deal. Our moral culpability is limited by our understanding, and by withholding the 'knowledge of good & evil' from Adam and Evil, god was hampering their understanding. Thus it can be argued that they shouldn't be held accountable for the transgression of eating from the Tree of Knowledge, because god hadn't properly equipped them to understand why they shouldn't do such an action (just why was disobeying god wrong, and how were they supposed to know that?). Their transgression was his failing, not their's; and yet he punishes them for it.

There's no better illustration in the Bible that questioning authority and obtaining knowledge are to be avoided in favor of blind obedience and ignorance. Such a useful tool for controlling an ignorant and illiterate society, wouldn't you agree?

I don't really view this as a bum deal or a story to control the ignorant masses. My religious and cultural education has trained me to view it through a different pair of lenses than the Christians do. I view this as a story about a choice and resulting consequences (both good and bad) and not a story about some vicious punishment meted out on an unsuspecting, ignorant couple.

For example, a college student makes a choice to go to university. Sure, maybe there is some expectation from mom and dad that they will go to school, but it is ultimately their choice. They eat the fruit. When they get to school, they find that they have to do hard work, give up free time, and stay focused for long periods of time, sometimes doing tasks that they don’t find appealing. School cuts into gaming time and general screwing around time, but there is a pay-off at the end. The act of learning is said to do wonders for your brain’s development. Working hard and learning new skills simply makes you smarter. Having a degree in a field that you enjoy will increase your chances of getting a well-paying job in a field that you like.

Was the choice to finish college forced on you? Is the hard work that you put into your education a punishment, or is it simply a consequence of choosing to go to school?

I think Jews and Christians just look at this story so differently. I learned about Adam and Eve when I was a child, but it was presented to me as a parable, and not as a historically accurate story to be taken literally. The emphasis was on the rise of human culture and the hard work and reward that comes with it.
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09-01-2016, 08:38 PM
RE: Adam and Eve
(09-01-2016 08:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(09-01-2016 04:36 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  It's still a bum deal. Our moral culpability is limited by our understanding, and by withholding the 'knowledge of good & evil' from Adam and Evil, god was hampering their understanding. Thus it can be argued that they shouldn't be held accountable for the transgression of eating from the Tree of Knowledge, because god hadn't properly equipped them to understand why they shouldn't do such an action (just why was disobeying god wrong, and how were they supposed to know that?). Their transgression was his failing, not their's; and yet he punishes them for it.

There's no better illustration in the Bible that questioning authority and obtaining knowledge are to be avoided in favor of blind obedience and ignorance. Such a useful tool for controlling an ignorant and illiterate society, wouldn't you agree?

I don't really view this as a bum deal or a story to control the ignorant masses. My religious and cultural education has trained me to view it through a different pair of lenses than the Christians do. I view this as a story about a choice and resulting consequences (both good and bad) and not a story about some vicious punishment meted out on an unsuspecting, ignorant couple.

For example, a college student makes a choice to go to university. Sure, maybe there is some expectation from mom and dad that they will go to school, but it is ultimately their choice. They eat the fruit. When they get to school, they find that they have to do hard work, give up free time, and stay focused for long periods of time, sometimes doing tasks that they don’t find appealing. School cuts into gaming time and general screwing around time, but there is a pay-off at the end. The act of learning is said to do wonders for your brain’s development. Working hard and learning new skills simply makes you smarter. Having a degree in a field that you enjoy will increase your chances of getting a well-paying job in a field that you like.

Was the choice to finish college forced on you? Is the hard work that you put into your education a punishment, or is it simply a consequence of choosing to go to school?

I think Jews and Christians just look at this story so differently. I learned about Adam and Eve when I was a child, but it was presented to me as a parable, and not as a historically accurate story to be taken literally. The emphasis was on the rise of human culture and the hard work and reward that comes with it.

What part of the story is the "hard work"? Consider

It does not make sense as a parable as you describe.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-01-2016, 08:44 PM
RE: Adam and Eve
(09-01-2016 08:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-01-2016 08:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I don't really view this as a bum deal or a story to control the ignorant masses. My religious and cultural education has trained me to view it through a different pair of lenses than the Christians do. I view this as a story about a choice and resulting consequences (both good and bad) and not a story about some vicious punishment meted out on an unsuspecting, ignorant couple.

For example, a college student makes a choice to go to university. Sure, maybe there is some expectation from mom and dad that they will go to school, but it is ultimately their choice. They eat the fruit. When they get to school, they find that they have to do hard work, give up free time, and stay focused for long periods of time, sometimes doing tasks that they don’t find appealing. School cuts into gaming time and general screwing around time, but there is a pay-off at the end. The act of learning is said to do wonders for your brain’s development. Working hard and learning new skills simply makes you smarter. Having a degree in a field that you enjoy will increase your chances of getting a well-paying job in a field that you like.

Was the choice to finish college forced on you? Is the hard work that you put into your education a punishment, or is it simply a consequence of choosing to go to school?

I think Jews and Christians just look at this story so differently. I learned about Adam and Eve when I was a child, but it was presented to me as a parable, and not as a historically accurate story to be taken literally. The emphasis was on the rise of human culture and the hard work and reward that comes with it.

What part of the story is the "hard work"? Consider

It does not make sense as a parable as you describe.

The part where Adam and Eve leave the garden and have to work to provide for themselves. The more they want, the harder they have to work.
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09-01-2016, 08:49 PM
RE: Adam and Eve
(09-01-2016 08:44 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(09-01-2016 08:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  What part of the story is the "hard work"? Consider

It does not make sense as a parable as you describe.

The part where Adam and Eve leave the garden and have to work to provide for themselves. The more they want, the harder they have to work.

So, the whole Garden thing - serpent, fruit, expulsion from paradise, knowledge, guilt, etc. - is meaningless?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-01-2016, 09:32 PM
RE: Adam and Eve
(09-01-2016 08:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(09-01-2016 04:36 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  It's still a bum deal. Our moral culpability is limited by our understanding, and by withholding the 'knowledge of good & evil' from Adam and Evil, god was hampering their understanding. Thus it can be argued that they shouldn't be held accountable for the transgression of eating from the Tree of Knowledge, because god hadn't properly equipped them to understand why they shouldn't do such an action (just why was disobeying god wrong, and how were they supposed to know that?). Their transgression was his failing, not their's; and yet he punishes them for it.

There's no better illustration in the Bible that questioning authority and obtaining knowledge are to be avoided in favor of blind obedience and ignorance. Such a useful tool for controlling an ignorant and illiterate society, wouldn't you agree?

I don't really view this as a bum deal or a story to control the ignorant masses. My religious and cultural education has trained me to view it through a different pair of lenses than the Christians do. I view this as a story about a choice and resulting consequences (both good and bad) and not a story about some vicious punishment meted out on an unsuspecting, ignorant couple.

For example, a college student makes a choice to go to university. Sure, maybe there is some expectation from mom and dad that they will go to school, but it is ultimately their choice. They eat the fruit. When they get to school, they find that they have to do hard work, give up free time, and stay focused for long periods of time, sometimes doing tasks that they don’t find appealing. School cuts into gaming time and general screwing around time, but there is a pay-off at the end. The act of learning is said to do wonders for your brain’s development. Working hard and learning new skills simply makes you smarter. Having a degree in a field that you enjoy will increase your chances of getting a well-paying job in a field that you like.

Was the choice to finish college forced on you? Is the hard work that you put into your education a punishment, or is it simply a consequence of choosing to go to school?

I think Jews and Christians just look at this story so differently. I learned about Adam and Eve when I was a child, but it was presented to me as a parable, and not as a historically accurate story to be taken literally. The emphasis was on the rise of human culture and the hard work and reward that comes with it.

Actually both Martin Buber (Jewish philosopher) and Paul Tillich (Christian theologian) said it was a story about "encompassing opposites", as did Joseph Campbell. A divine being could "know both good and evil", (which is what the temptation really was, and the (supposed) result of eating the fruit of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil". Humans can't. They have to decide. One or the other, not both. Go to school or don't. It's not about disobedience, it's about choosing ... one or the other. It's an ancient morality tale about "chaos" (no choice) and order (a moral choice). The Sumerians and Babylonians were fascinated with the notion of "chaos and order". They (the editors of Genesis) took the concept from Marduk slaying the Dragon of Chaos (Tiamet).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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09-01-2016, 11:23 PM
RE: Adam and Eve
(09-01-2016 08:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(09-01-2016 04:36 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  It's still a bum deal. Our moral culpability is limited by our understanding, and by withholding the 'knowledge of good & evil' from Adam and Evil, god was hampering their understanding. Thus it can be argued that they shouldn't be held accountable for the transgression of eating from the Tree of Knowledge, because god hadn't properly equipped them to understand why they shouldn't do such an action (just why was disobeying god wrong, and how were they supposed to know that?). Their transgression was his failing, not their's; and yet he punishes them for it.

There's no better illustration in the Bible that questioning authority and obtaining knowledge are to be avoided in favor of blind obedience and ignorance. Such a useful tool for controlling an ignorant and illiterate society, wouldn't you agree?
I don't really view this as a bum deal or a story to control the ignorant masses. My religious and cultural education has trained me to view it through a different pair of lenses than the Christians do. I view this as a story about a choice and resulting consequences (both good and bad) and not a story about some vicious punishment meted out on an unsuspecting, ignorant couple.


Right, so Jewish tinted-lenses rather than Christian-tinted lenses are still tinted lenses.

And if it is a story about the consequences of choice, it must still be pointed out that it is an uninformed choice, and that attempting to become informed had in and of itself dire consequences; ones that could not be understood nor predicted beforehand. It's still a monumental dick move.



(09-01-2016 08:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  For example, a college student makes a choice to go to university. Sure, maybe there is some expectation from mom and dad that they will go to school, but it is ultimately their choice. They eat the fruit. When they get to school, they find that they have to do hard work, give up free time, and stay focused for long periods of time, sometimes doing tasks that they don’t find appealing. School cuts into gaming time and general screwing around time, but there is a pay-off at the end. The act of learning is said to do wonders for your brain’s development. Working hard and learning new skills simply makes you smarter. Having a degree in a field that you enjoy will increase your chances of getting a well-paying job in a field that you like.


That's a false equivocation, and you should be smart enough to see that. Picking a college is typically a long and drawn out decision, informed by a number of different factors, and attending or not is not seen as more or less morally superior or otherwise ethically important. Prospective students make an informed decision, where they have to balance the costs and benefits, and go into it knowing the trade-offs involved. None of that applied to Adam and Eve.

Prospective students have the tools available to make informed decisions, god withheld those tools from Adam and Eve, then punished them for trying to obtain them.


I mean, good thing the story is a load of bollocks, but there is nothing else to be gained from it other than the cautionary tale that god will fuck your shit up if you don't fall in line...



(09-01-2016 08:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Was the choice to finish college forced on you? Is the hard work that you put into your education a punishment, or is it simply a consequence of choosing to go to school?


Your analogy breaks under your own misuse. Informed college students are not the same as naked thought slaves.



(09-01-2016 08:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I think Jews and Christians just look at this story so differently. I learned about Adam and Eve when I was a child, but it was presented to me as a parable, and not as a historically accurate story to be taken literally. The emphasis was on the rise of human culture and the hard work and reward that comes with it.


And yet, without a pastor or rabbi holding your hand, if you just read it as is without preconceptions or biases? It's a fucked up story, a neigh nonsensical one, involving a megalomaniacal control freak and the slaves he punishes for not following his instructions to the letter.

Only with the tinted-lenses of religion do you get the perspective that Adam and Eve were wrong for disobeying god, because those religious traditions are built upon that assumption. Without that indoctrination, there's no reason to assume that disobeying god is wrong, or that they even knew enough to make such a decision. It's make sense only as a cautionary parable if you assume they already had such 'knowledge', that they indeed already thought like a Jew or Christian should, and only then does it fit the narrative being pushed by the religion.

Presupposing that god is real and should not be disobeyed turns the story of Adam and Eve into a cautionary tale of what happens when you chose to disobey god. It's a self reinforcing story that just supports the assumptions that believers already have and project onto the story. Read from the outside, and without those assumptions (without religious indoctrination), the story is a nonsensical egotistical cluster-fuck of a power trip.

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10-01-2016, 12:49 AM
RE: Adam and Eve
Why an apple? Why not an orange or pear? And why a snake? Why not a frog? So many questions, not enough answers.

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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