Adam and Eve
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10-01-2016, 01:59 AM (This post was last modified: 10-01-2016 02:03 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Adam and Eve
"For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing (both) good and evil."

*Eating of the fruit" is literary metaphor. How about we not be 2 year olds. It means "to experience". Facepalm It's an allegory, and there is nothing "false" about it. Taking it literally is just as stupid when non-believers do it, as it is when Fundies do it. It's an ancient wisdom myth. Saying it's "false" or "stupid" is like saying the Greek myths are "false" or "stupid'. It's what that culture thought was an authentic way to convey "a truth". You don't like it, great. It worked for them.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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10-01-2016, 07:21 AM
RE: Adam and Eve
The problem with the story is that Adam and Eve actually never existed. And whole apple bullshit thing never happens.
No

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
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10-01-2016, 08:42 AM
RE: Adam and Eve
(10-01-2016 07:21 AM)Leo Wrote:  The problem with the story is that Adam and Eve actually never existed. And whole apple bullshit thing never happens.
No

Of course they didn't. Neither did Zeus or Gilgamesh or Harry Potter or Luke Skywalker. There's no "problem" with any set of myths. The "problem" arises when someone reads myth as history, or saying that the Genesis myth is about eating apples, when "eating of the fruit" is clearly metaphorical, and thus miss the entire point of the story. Taking it literally produces all kinds of nonsensical and morally illogical issues.

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10-01-2016, 08:52 AM
RE: Adam and Eve
(09-01-2016 09:32 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(09-01-2016 08:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I don't really view this as a bum deal or a story to control the ignorant masses. My religious and cultural education has trained me to view it through a different pair of lenses than the Christians do. I view this as a story about a choice and resulting consequences (both good and bad) and not a story about some vicious punishment meted out on an unsuspecting, ignorant couple.

For example, a college student makes a choice to go to university. Sure, maybe there is some expectation from mom and dad that they will go to school, but it is ultimately their choice. They eat the fruit. When they get to school, they find that they have to do hard work, give up free time, and stay focused for long periods of time, sometimes doing tasks that they don’t find appealing. School cuts into gaming time and general screwing around time, but there is a pay-off at the end. The act of learning is said to do wonders for your brain’s development. Working hard and learning new skills simply makes you smarter. Having a degree in a field that you enjoy will increase your chances of getting a well-paying job in a field that you like.

Was the choice to finish college forced on you? Is the hard work that you put into your education a punishment, or is it simply a consequence of choosing to go to school?

I think Jews and Christians just look at this story so differently. I learned about Adam and Eve when I was a child, but it was presented to me as a parable, and not as a historically accurate story to be taken literally. The emphasis was on the rise of human culture and the hard work and reward that comes with it.

Actually both Martin Buber (Jewish philosopher) and Paul Tillich (Christian theologian) said it was a story about "encompassing opposites", as did Joseph Campbell. A divine being could "know both good and evil", (which is what the temptation really was, and the (supposed) result of eating the fruit of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil". Humans can't. They have to decide. One or the other, not both. Go to school or don't. It's not about disobedience, it's about choosing ... one or the other. It's an ancient morality tale about "chaos" (no choice) and order (a moral choice). The Sumerians and Babylonians were fascinated with the notion of "chaos and order". They (the editors of Genesis) took the concept from Marduk slaying the Dragon of Chaos (Tiamet).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat

Bucky, that's a really good explanation about the version of the story that I've been taught. It's not a punishment thing. It's a choice; plain and simple.

If I understood what you were saying in your post, then I find it interesting to learn that the moral of the story, as it's been taught to me, remains more consistent to how the ancients viewed it, while the Christian version turned into a story about snakes and apples and punishment for being evil.

Why might the Jews have retained this explanation through 3,500ish years (many of them nomadic), while the Christians turned it into a completely different story almost as soon as they got their hands on it?
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10-01-2016, 09:55 AM (This post was last modified: 10-01-2016 12:40 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Adam and Eve
(10-01-2016 08:52 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(09-01-2016 09:32 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Actually both Martin Buber (Jewish philosopher) and Paul Tillich (Christian theologian) said it was a story about "encompassing opposites", as did Joseph Campbell. A divine being could "know both good and evil", (which is what the temptation really was, and the (supposed) result of eating the fruit of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil". Humans can't. They have to decide. One or the other, not both. Go to school or don't. It's not about disobedience, it's about choosing ... one or the other. It's an ancient morality tale about "chaos" (no choice) and order (a moral choice). The Sumerians and Babylonians were fascinated with the notion of "chaos and order". They (the editors of Genesis) took the concept from Marduk slaying the Dragon of Chaos (Tiamet).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat

Bucky, that's a really good explanation about the version of the story that I've been taught. It's not a punishment thing. It's a choice; plain and simple.

If I understood what you were saying in your post, then I find it interesting to learn that the moral of the story, as it's been taught to me, remains more consistent to how the ancients viewed it, while the Christian version turned into a story about snakes and apples and punishment for being evil.

Why might the Jews have retained this explanation through 3,500ish years (many of them nomadic), while the Christians turned it into a completely different story almost as soon as they got their hands on it?

There are a number of reasons, (IMO) for that.
1. The Jews also had the background of the Talmud ((where "Adam" (Kademon) came from)) as a reference, so never went so "off the rails".
2. Fundamentalism in the US took everything to ridiculously "low" levels of stupidity, and the various forms of literary genres were just not something they knew anything about, (either in Jewish literary history or any other, for that matter).
3. The "disobedience/snake/apple" hijacking served their simplistic invention of the necessity for "salvation from original sin" which was never any part of the original myth. The first Christians fully expected the "end of the age" in their lifetimes. When that didn't happen, they needed a way to "reinterpret" it all. Priests need jobs too, ya know. Facepalm But Christianity exploded because it was politically useful to the Roman Empire for unification purposes. Constantine called his council, and didn't care what they came up with, as long as they agreed on something, and stopped fighting.
4. The literacy rate was unimaginably low. Christians were free to cook up anything that served their purposes.
5. Augustine was insane, (as was Saul of Tarsus), both riddled with guilt over their "wastrel" lifestyles. They projected their poor self-images onto the entire human race, when they cooked up "original sin", and "salvation".
6. All human ideas "evolve". Judaism in the "apocalyptic" period (around the turn of the millennium) was far different post Exile than it had been during the Exile.
7. Last but hardly least, the moral thought in the West, was and is, an artifact of males and male approaches to life. (See Nel Noddings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nel_Noddings ) It's very warped by that fact, and the
(for example) rigidity of Kant and "the boys".

BTW, the Bible was assembled during the Exile by the Judean priests. The Persian emperor was sending them back to a "disrupted culture", (in which the totally new notion of "individualism" was stirring and about to arise... which is so much a part of modern thought, it's impossible to imagine it's absence, but that shift was vastly important in Western thought.)
.... was on the rise, and he knew they needed a (new) central organizing feature for their culture. The Bible never was the central organizing (legal and mythical) feature of that culture before the Exile.
It's more like 2600 years, not 3500 years.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ble-Bull-s
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid160188
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...other-Look

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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12-03-2016, 01:58 PM
RE: Adam and Eve
Wow. There is so much smart stuff being said here already I'm a little shy to contribute my two cents. But here goes:
As the Bible is a piece of literature, I'd like to bring up another, namely Milton's Paradise Lost. It's a little unclear but god's explanation for the fall (at least according to my professors reading of the text) was essentially so that Jesus could be the Savior, making it a fortunate fall. I was also taught growing up in the church that god put the tree in the garden "for his own glory" which would seem to support this interpretation. It also reinforces god's characterization as a real asshole.
I like the more compassionate, abstract reading that's also been presented here. I just know that from my experience, this story was never really explained to me that way, since it was in many senses another way to instill the fear of god and a knowledge of the depravity of mankind into god's people. But the Calvinists were never known for being particularly kind...
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12-03-2016, 02:20 PM
RE: Adam and Eve
(12-03-2016 01:58 PM)debna27 Wrote:  Wow. There is so much smart stuff being said here already I'm a little shy to contribute my two cents. But here goes:
As the Bible is a piece of literature, I'd like to bring up another, namely Milton's Paradise Lost. It's a little unclear but god's explanation for the fall (at least according to my professors reading of the text) was essentially so that Jesus could be the Savior, making it a fortunate fall. I was also taught growing up in the church that god put the tree in the garden "for his own glory" which would seem to support this interpretation. It also reinforces god's characterization as a real asshole.
I like the more compassionate, abstract reading that's also been presented here. I just know that from my experience, this story was never really explained to me that way, since it was in many senses another way to instill the fear of god and a knowledge of the depravity of mankind into god's people. But the Calvinists were never known for being particularly kind...

Without a fall, no savior is necessary. Christian theology is childish circular reasoning.
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12-03-2016, 02:33 PM
RE: Adam and Eve
(12-03-2016 02:20 PM)Rik Wrote:  
(12-03-2016 01:58 PM)debna27 Wrote:  Wow. There is so much smart stuff being said here already I'm a little shy to contribute my two cents. But here goes:
As the Bible is a piece of literature, I'd like to bring up another, namely Milton's Paradise Lost. It's a little unclear but god's explanation for the fall (at least according to my professors reading of the text) was essentially so that Jesus could be the Savior, making it a fortunate fall. I was also taught growing up in the church that god put the tree in the garden "for his own glory" which would seem to support this interpretation. It also reinforces god's characterization as a real asshole.
I like the more compassionate, abstract reading that's also been presented here. I just know that from my experience, this story was never really explained to me that way, since it was in many senses another way to instill the fear of god and a knowledge of the depravity of mankind into god's people. But the Calvinists were never known for being particularly kind...

Without a fall, no savior is necessary. Christian theology is childish circular reasoning.
I definitely agree. It's simply their attempt to justify something that they've chosen to accept as truth. This interpretation particularly smacks of Syndrome in The Incredibles...god making himself the hero that saves people from the disaster he created in the first place. A metaphor from a family movie for a decidedly not family friendly story.
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12-03-2016, 03:38 PM
RE: Adam and Eve
I can not be angry with the people of the time of this stories creation. They had limited access to the understanding of the world that we do today. They did their best. The sad part is with the people of today that adhere to this story as true. A wealth of knowledge at their finger tips. From hundreds of years of study, and evidence. And they still think that life started with two nudest and a talking snake.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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19-03-2016, 07:25 PM
RE: Adam and Eve
(08-01-2016 05:19 PM)Zen Wrote:  Why did God give Adam and Eve the option to take the apple? Why did he give them the free will to commit a 'sin'?
It makes no sense.

The whole story is messed up if you think about it. It is something that I have had so many questions if you sit and think about it.

I was brought up that he wanted us to have free will and for us not be robots. BUT, if eating the fruit gave me Free Will but the cost was birth defects, wars, disease, rape, murder, slavery, starvation, natural disasters, really anything horrible that you can think of, I would choose to be a robot. At least no women or children would be sold into sex slaves, no people would starve to death...we wouldn't know any different. We would have wonderful lives with no tragedies. And being a robot must not be that bad...once we get to heaven, won't be robots there? Will we have free will in heaven?

So, lets think about this...I often would compare god to myself as a parent. Would I place poisonous candy on a table, tell my children to not eat it (fully knowing they are going to eat it). THEN when they do, I let them suffer in their sickness (the horrible things that happens to people on earth) , Kick them out of my house with nothing (removing them from the garden), killing their dog in front of them and skinning it (I am assuming they were close to the animals, they had never seen death, god killed an animal THEN made them wear the animal's skin), Punish their siblings (all of mankind were punished for Adam and Eve), and I beat the shit out of them everyday and tell them this was their choice because they disobeyed me (eternal torment in hell) This would make a monster of a mother and I would end up in jail. But, we are to say god is good and that Adam and Eve should not have disobeyed god!

Think about this too...Eve ate the fruit first. She must have been a horrible bitch to begin with. I would assume when she ate the fruit and realized she was naked and had her eyes open to sin. She still had Adam eat it!!! Why didn't she tell Adam, I messed up, do NOT eat of this fruit, I am naked, I know what sin is...nope, she just gave it right to Adam. I see it as the author blaming women and making them out to looks horrible for bringing Adam into the mess.

God created the earth, he created Lucifer, he knew Lucifer would rebel. God placed that tree in the garden knowing they would consume it. God allowed Eve to be tempted by a talking snake. God created hell knowing that he would be sending humans there too.

Just by the Adam and Eve story alone, God is not love. There are no good qualities about him. BTW, I do not believe in this story at all...but I used to.
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