Addiction
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02-06-2015, 11:47 AM
RE: Addiction
(02-06-2015 10:43 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  On another note; if disease was intended to punish humanity for the Fall, then why do you think there are many diseases that humans can't catch but other animals can (like distemper). Genesis states the god punished the serpent for the coercion but it says nothing about having to punish all of creation. How do you account for this? Just curious.

I think there might be some disconnect.

It's not a "punishment". It just "is". It's a cause and an effect of being mortal beings living in a mortal world where everything is struggling to survive by doing whatever it takes to survive.

If God purposed life and created it to follow guidelines (biology, evolution, laws, physics, etc), then we can't assign any type of morality to things. All of nature is amoral... just like a shark eating a person... that shark isn't immoral... it can't be guided by any type of moral consequences and "punishment" is a moral concept.

The theology of human morality is a whole different subject... a topic for another day.

In short, disease and death in nature aren't results of a punishment for sin... it's just a part of nature.

Sin is possible because of an imperfect world and can only happen within the confines of morality.

Nature is amoral.

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02-06-2015, 12:00 PM
RE: Addiction
(02-06-2015 10:43 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  As far as I am aware KC, there isn't one that says exactly that. Having said that, this is precisely something that is preached in some churches. I have heard this exact thing stated by the head pastor at my wife's church, which is not fundie at all. He says that since god saw his creation as "good" he (the pastor) takes it as perfect and the Fall screwed it up. It was perfect and it is our fault that the world is broken. Not that I am defending this idea but that is how I have heard it presented before.

I know it is. And it needs to be challenged because it's bibically incorrect.

Not only that, it's also logically and theologically incorrect and heretical.

Logically speaking, if something is created perfect, it could never move into imperfection. If it did, it could have never been perfect. If God made a perfect creation, The Fall would be impossible as it does not coincide with perfection. If The Fall did, indeed, happen, then the perfect creation could not have happened because there was a fall into imperfection.

Theologically speaking only God can be perfect. In no way, theologically speaking, is it ever okay to ever say that we are/were equal to God... at any period of time. That's what this is teaching; thus, the heretical part.

Throw that at the next theist that says they were a perfect creation and see how they explain it. Also, ask for the verse where it says we were perfect.

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02-06-2015, 12:13 PM
RE: Addiction
When it comes to addiction, it is important to remember that whatever we are addicted to is good. We are not addicted to harmful things, generally, but because we are addicted they become harmful. The occasional pipe has, in my opinion, far more positives than negatives, but smoking 2 and a half packs a day is clearly harmful. Similarly, working out is good but if you do it to often you cause damage. Eat to much you get fat. I like to follow Chesterton's concept that everything can be done in moderation. After all Catholicism is the one religion where the pipe, the pint, and the cross can all fit together.

Ps. Interesting timing since I'm quitting smoking today.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
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02-06-2015, 12:36 PM
Addiction
Not sure meth and heroin fit into that category.
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02-06-2015, 12:59 PM
RE: Addiction
(02-06-2015 12:36 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  Not sure meth and heroin fit into that category.

Heroin is a painkiller and was developed as a medicine. While probably not good recreationally it is still good. And regarding meth, according to cracked, the most common user of methamphetamines are single parent mothers who are working two jobs type people. They use meth as a stimulant in order to complete their day. Kinda a more extreme version of caffeine.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
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02-06-2015, 09:57 PM
RE: Addiction
(02-06-2015 11:47 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(02-06-2015 10:43 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  On another note; if disease was intended to punish humanity for the Fall, then why do you think there are many diseases that humans can't catch but other animals can (like distemper). Genesis states the god punished the serpent for the coercion but it says nothing about having to punish all of creation. How do you account for this? Just curious.

I think there might be some disconnect.

It's not a "punishment". It just "is". It's a cause and an effect of being mortal beings living in a mortal world where everything is struggling to survive by doing whatever it takes to survive.

If God purposed life and created it to follow guidelines (biology, evolution, laws, physics, etc), then we can't assign any type of morality to things. All of nature is amoral... just like a shark eating a person... that shark isn't immoral... it can't be guided by any type of moral consequences and "punishment" is a moral concept.

The theology of human morality is a whole different subject... a topic for another day.

In short, disease and death in nature aren't results of a punishment for sin... it's just a part of nature.

Sin is possible because of an imperfect world and can only happen within the confines of morality.

Nature is amoral.

Not sure how morality crept into that. Could you clarify why?

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
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03-06-2015, 07:12 AM
RE: Addiction
(02-06-2015 09:57 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(02-06-2015 11:47 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I think there might be some disconnect.

It's not a "punishment". It just "is". It's a cause and an effect of being mortal beings living in a mortal world where everything is struggling to survive by doing whatever it takes to survive.

If God purposed life and created it to follow guidelines (biology, evolution, laws, physics, etc), then we can't assign any type of morality to things. All of nature is amoral... just like a shark eating a person... that shark isn't immoral... it can't be guided by any type of moral consequences and "punishment" is a moral concept.

The theology of human morality is a whole different subject... a topic for another day.

In short, disease and death in nature aren't results of a punishment for sin... it's just a part of nature.

Sin is possible because of an imperfect world and can only happen within the confines of morality.

Nature is amoral.

Not sure how morality crept into that. Could you clarify why?

Yeah. I'll type something up later if you really are that interested. If not, just know that there is some type of reasoning.

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03-06-2015, 07:16 AM
RE: Addiction
(02-06-2015 11:47 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(02-06-2015 10:43 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  On another note; if disease was intended to punish humanity for the Fall, then why do you think there are many diseases that humans can't catch but other animals can (like distemper). Genesis states the god punished the serpent for the coercion but it says nothing about having to punish all of creation. How do you account for this? Just curious.

I think there might be some disconnect.

It's not a "punishment". It just "is". It's a cause and an effect of being mortal beings living in a mortal world where everything is struggling to survive by doing whatever it takes to survive.

If God purposed life and created it to follow guidelines (biology, evolution, laws, physics, etc), then we can't assign any type of morality to things. All of nature is amoral... just like a shark eating a person... that shark isn't immoral... it can't be guided by any type of moral consequences and "punishment" is a moral concept.

The theology of human morality is a whole different subject... a topic for another day.

In short, disease and death in nature aren't results of a punishment for sin... it's just a part of nature.

Sin is possible because of an imperfect world and can only happen within the confines of morality.

Nature is amoral.

I agree, especially with the last 2 lines that you have there. I'm confused as to why you would have to attribute sin to anything when the alternative is much simpler.

To have sin, you must start with the premise that there is a god, and he has a will, and said action violates his will.

Without evidence to the contrary, all we can be sure of is what we have learned about the natural universe and laws. If you look at every culture, "morality" and behavior vary based on the priority of the people who control information and power.

KC, sorry if you've already answered this before, but I'm just curious as to why someone like yourself who is very intelligent and has given much thought to all of these issues is a theist?

Remember, just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true. Yes, even if you have faith.
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03-06-2015, 08:42 AM
RE: Addiction
(02-06-2015 08:46 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  ...
Please cite the verse where we are a perfect creation.

Bro, get yer arse over to Asia and I can introduce you to some heavenly bodies.

Wink

(02-06-2015 10:16 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  ...
Why would perfection create perfection?
...

I seem to recall some mention of creation in his likeness.
Consider

Are you saying we're just a cheap knock-off?

Très disappoint.

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03-06-2015, 11:19 AM
RE: Addiction
(03-06-2015 08:42 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(02-06-2015 08:46 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  ...
Please cite the verse where we are a perfect creation.

Bro, get yer arse over to Asia and I can introduce you to some heavenly bodies.

Wink

(02-06-2015 10:16 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  ...
Why would perfection create perfection?
...

I seem to recall some mention of creation in his likeness.
Consider

Are you saying we're just a cheap knock-off?

Très disappoint.


We were created in His image--but that was before the Fall...after the Fall, sin entered the world and humans were no longer "perfect."
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