After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
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12-09-2013, 03:31 PM
After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(12-09-2013 03:23 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(12-09-2013 03:19 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Actually that was a typo on my part I meant not Matter is made of energy.
I still don't get it. Why again was matter not formed from energy?

'Matter' is not a scientific term.

In a relativistic sense, if used at all it simply means "that which contributes mass to a system". In more classical scenarios it is used to mean "that which is comprised of atoms".

In no sense is is "made of energy".

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12-09-2013, 03:48 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe,
(12-09-2013 05:32 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(12-09-2013 05:13 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Heywood, like I indicated earlier in the thread the absolute size of the universe is a difficult argument to make theologically for this reason. However, tie it to the problem of evil and you have a god who created 4.5 billion years of suffering through evolution in order for the earth to reach its current status. I suppose if you don't judge a god for creating eternal unwarranted suffering in the form of hell then you won't judge him for a mere 4.5 billion years of blood... but in either case a naturalistic explanation seems simpler than any argument that has to resolve this problem of evil.

The capacity to suffer is an evolved trait. Suffering most certainly hasn't been occurring on this planet for 4.5 billion years as you suggest....400 million years at best. Suffering also enhances survivability. Suffering is a benefit not a detriment.
It's really quite simple Heywood. An omniscient god would have the knowledge to create a universe without suffering. An omnipotent god would have the power to create it. And an omnibenevolent god would have the will to do so. BTW,... didn't your "god" create the world in six days? Or do you believe in the wishy-washy, hippie-dippy, edited to accommodate scientific facts type of god?

You can lead a theist to reason, but, you cannot make him think.
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12-09-2013, 03:53 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(12-09-2013 03:23 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(12-09-2013 03:19 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Actually that was a typo on my part I meant not Matter is made of energy.
I still don't get it. Why again was matter not formed from energy?

What you are saying is "Water is made of Steam" no they are just different states of matter.

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12-09-2013, 03:58 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(12-09-2013 03:31 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(12-09-2013 03:23 PM)childeye Wrote:  I still don't get it. Why again was matter not formed from energy?

'Matter' is not a scientific term.

In a relativistic sense, if used at all it simply means "that which contributes mass to a system". In more classical scenarios it is used to mean "that which is comprised of atoms".

In no sense is is "made of energy".
So let me get this straight. You would prefer me to say matter is energy in a different form?
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12-09-2013, 04:02 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(12-09-2013 03:53 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(12-09-2013 03:23 PM)childeye Wrote:  I still don't get it. Why again was matter not formed from energy?

What you are saying is "Water is made of Steam" no they are just different states of matter.
You're confusing me. I never in my thought process tried to say "water is made of steam". I said matter, as in things that take up space, are essentially composed of energy.
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12-09-2013, 04:27 PM
After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(12-09-2013 03:16 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(12-09-2013 03:08 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Energy (potential force) = Mass times the Constant of the speed of light Squared. Not Mass is made of energy.
Did I say mass is made of energy? I meant matter.

Energy in it's basic definition is the capacity to perform work.
Work is the movement of force through a distance and energy is measured in the same units as work.

Matter is not made of energy, but rather when you lift a baseball from the ground you are using & losing energy to move the ball a certain distance.
The ball gains energy from that movement.
If you drop that ball, the energy from the ball is transferred to the ground.

When we look at E=MC^2 we are looking at the amount of work that matter can do when it's mass is converted into forms of energy that do work, light energy, sound energy, thermal energy, kinetic energy, etc.

If a gram of matter were to be converted into light, we can ask, how much energy in the form of light would that be ?

I hope I'm explaining this in the proper way.

If we had an equation that says
The value of Art = the fame of the painter x the age of the artwork
V(a) = F(p) x A(a)

Although we have a relationship between the age of the artwork and the value of the artwork, the artwork itself isn't made of Values.

This is probably a horrible analogy.

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12-09-2013, 04:35 PM (This post was last modified: 12-09-2013 04:39 PM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(12-09-2013 03:48 PM)NoSkyDaddy Wrote:  It's really quite simple Heywood. An omniscient god would have the knowledge to create a universe without suffering. An omnipotent god would have the power to create it. And an omnibenevolent god would have the will to do so. BTW,... didn't your "god" create the world in six days? Or do you believe in the wishy-washy, hippie-dippy, edited to accommodate scientific facts type of god?

For your argument to have any credibility you have to show that the capacity to suffer is a defect. Your argument implies that premise. You're basically saying that since God created beings with a capacity to suffer, God created defective beings when He had it in His power to create non-defective beings. Since God willfully created defective beings, God cannot be omnibenevolent. That is the jist of your argument....right?

Why is the capacity to suffer a defect? I don't buy the problem with evil argument atheists toss out because it is based on an unsubstantiated, and in my opinion, false premise. The capacity to suffer is much more likely to be an enhancement instead of a defect.
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12-09-2013, 04:39 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(12-09-2013 04:27 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  
(12-09-2013 03:16 PM)childeye Wrote:  Did I say mass is made of energy? I meant matter.

Energy in it's basic definition is the capacity to perform work.
Work is the movement of force through a distance and energy is measured in the same units as work.

Matter is not made of energy, but rather when you lift a baseball from the ground you are using & losing energy to move the ball a certain distance.
The ball gains energy from that movement.
If you drop that ball, the energy from the ball is transferred to the ground.

When we look at E=MC^2 we are looking at the amount of work that matter can do when it's mass is converted into forms of energy that do work, light energy, sound energy, thermal energy, kinetic energy, etc.

If a gram of matter were to be converted into light, we can ask, how much energy in the form of light would that be ?

I hope I'm explaining this in the proper way.

If we had an equation that says
The value of Art = the fame of the painter x the age of the artwork
V(a) = F(p) x A(a)

Although we have a relationship between the age of the artwork and the value of the artwork, the artwork itself isn't made of Values.

This is probably a horrible analogy.
I appreciate your attempt to inform me. Using your description of energy, I am trying to say is some work went into making the universe.
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12-09-2013, 05:01 PM
After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(12-09-2013 02:18 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(12-09-2013 11:16 AM)Impulse Wrote:  A flea is to a computer as I am to a skyscraper. Not the same axiom at all. Plus, anything else you could mention is inside the universe. The universe is the container. There may or may not be an outside to the universe - we don't know - but if there isn't, there would be nothing even possibly comparable.

Finally, consider the reverse. If there is a god who created the universe and everything in it, that means the god even created all the microscopic organisms. A being powerful enough to create something the size of the universe would likely be bigger than the universe or at least comparably huge. In terms of size, that would be like you trying to create something that is some enormous exponent times smaller than bacteria. With what tools? With what hands? How could you even see what you were working on creating? And please don't reply "he can because he's god" because it won't even begin to convince me.
Indeed that would be an unfulfilling response to simply say He can because He's God. Nonetheless I am not exactly trying to convince you of anything. I don't know the mechanics of how God would create a universe. The bible simply says by faith all things were created. By a simple let it be so. Of course thanks to Einstein, we know that energy is what matter is comprised of. How energy is formed into matter is still an ongoing theoretical study. My only point is only to say we can't put limits on what God can or can't do .

I agree with you, we are tiny in comparison to the universe, hardly a speck. Size really isn't the issue here in my view. Consider that all computer code is simply 0's and 1's, and yet vast complex calculations can be carried out with just a simple binary system. Even so, the same building blocks of DNA in mankind are found in microscopic animals. So I am pretty sure it is beyond our pay grade to say God can't exist simply because the universe is too big or complex . If God is eternal then the entire universe and all that is in it may be a speck from some other perspective.
If you're going by the Bible, that's problem number one.

Why can't we put limits on what "God" can or can't do? If a limit seems unavoidable, it makes more sense to reject the idea of "God" than to change our view of reality in order to make sure the "God" concept fits.

I'm not buying the 1's and 0's analogy either. I don't see 1's and 0's as having size in the same sense as fleas, people, computers, or the universe. 1's and 0's are a mathematical concept. They are applied to computers physically by electromagnetism. So I guess you're really speaking of the charged particles. Then you attempted to show what those can do, but in fact they can do nothing. It takes the rest of the computer before they are useful at all in the context of computing.

I think size is very relevant when it comes to the universe in particular, which is the biggest thing we know about. But, if you think that's insufficient to disprove "god", it's ok, there are plenty of other arguments against the existence of a god. Tongue

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12-09-2013, 05:29 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe
(12-09-2013 04:35 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  For your argument to have any credibility you have to show that the capacity to suffer is a defect.


Heywood Jahblome Wrote:The capacity to suffer is an evolved trait. Suffering most certainly hasn't been occurring on this planet for 4.5 billion years as you suggest....400 million years at best. Suffering also enhances survivability. Suffering is a benefit not a detriment.


Heywood Jahblome Wrote:You're basically saying that since God created beings with a capacity to suffer, God created defective beings when He had it in His power to create non-defective beings. Since God willfully created defective beings, God cannot be omnibenevolent. That is the jist of your argument....right?
Yes. An omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent would create a universe where suffering is not necessary for survival. To say otherwise paints "God" as an experimenting, tinkering dolt who can't seem to put the finishing touches on a stable existence. Why would god(s) create a constantly changing environment, which constantly threatens extinction to it's inhabitants? Why would a perfect god(s) create beings in need of constant evolutionary revision? What compassionate, omnibenevolent purpose does a struggle to survive serve?

Heywood Jahblome Wrote:I don't buy the problem with evil argument atheists toss out because it is based on an unsubstantiated, and in my opinion, false premise.
It's based on theist claims of the qualities attributed to the "creator of everything". It is pointing out the faults in your argument. The fact is, there is no evidence to support the hypothesis of a creator being/entity/deity or however you want to label your delusional imaginary friend.
If you must believe it to remain sane, have at it. But, don't ask me to believe too. If the belief that you are Teddy Roosevelt keeps you from foaming at the mouth, clawing out your eyes and ripping out your hair, so be it. If you think I'm charging San Juan Hill with you....think again.

If there was a supreme being of any kind with the ability to intervene in existing natural processes, and also with the will to do so, it would have measurable effects. Present a body of measurable, verifiable data which requires such a being as an explanation. As of yet none exists. Until then... have fun charging the hill.

You can lead a theist to reason, but, you cannot make him think.
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