After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
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12-09-2013, 09:18 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(12-09-2013 08:54 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-09-2013 08:08 PM)childeye Wrote:  All that supernatural being means to me is someone I cannot understand or comprehend. Could be a reptilian extra terrestrial that would fit that description. Ultimate Truth to me is all knowing, as in the source, cause and reason of all things.

We're not talking about your bizarre understanding. You said "its most common usage".
In my experience when talking about God and reading scripture that's what I get. Any dictionary has the term a supreme being which implies a sentience that is above all others in order of authority. At any rate I see nothing bizarre about finding all the answers to everything there, hence the ultimate Truth which comprises all knowledge.
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12-09-2013, 09:38 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(12-09-2013 07:44 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Mass and energy are two properties of physical systems. Matter is a physical system. Therefore mass and energy are properties of matter. Mass and energy are characteristics of matter, not the ingredients of matter.

Except no, because that is not how the terms are defined in physics. 'Matter' is not a well-defined scientific term. I provided to contexts in which it was used.

If that is how you are defining it; sure. You're free to do so.

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12-09-2013, 10:55 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(12-09-2013 08:44 PM)theword Wrote:  
(11-09-2013 11:01 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  "there's something unknown, therefore god must exist, and it's got to be the god of the bible".....can you see how deluded you people are? What the fuck does one (as yet) unknown in the vast expanse of the cosmos have to do with the fucking bible?
Nice try, you still make no sense.

That was the point. I rest my case. Drinking Beverage

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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12-09-2013, 11:07 PM (This post was last modified: 13-09-2013 02:17 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(12-09-2013 07:32 PM)childeye Wrote:  Semantics. It could be said everything that exists is evidence of God. It's all how one defines the term God. In it's most common usage it is an ultimate Truth of all things, the beginning and the end, etc... Hence there are false gods just as numerous as peoples opinions of what that Truth is.

Semantics indeed, as 'gods' most common usage is not ultimate truth. It usually refers in an interventionist creator super-being that cannot be verified to exist, and with a personality colored by whatever particular religion/faith/denomination that particular person ascribes too.

Also, stop spelling truth with a capitol T, it's pretentious and juvenile. Drinking Beverage

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12-09-2013, 11:09 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(12-09-2013 08:47 PM)theword Wrote:  I don't know if that dissertation was directed at me, mainly because I did not take the hour to read it.

'Not reading' about sums up your skill set here on the forums...Drinking Beverage

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12-09-2013, 11:12 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(12-09-2013 10:54 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(12-09-2013 07:42 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  You're not really making an argument but rather just stating an opinion. That's why the whole "problem with evil" argument atheist use is just silly. Its not really an argument at all but rather just an opinion that there is too much suffering in the world. Why is a world without suffering better than a world with suffering? For 4 billion years there was no suffering in this world(the capacity to suffer simply did not exist) but by your reasoning, you would say the world has gotten worse over time. I think the world has gotten better.

Would you agree that raping, torturing, and killing little girls is worse than not doing those things? It is a matter of simple probability that in world with ~7.1 billion humans on it, this very act will take place ending the life of an innocent little girl some time on this planet within the next 48 hours.

I posit that if this were to happen even once, it would disprove an all-powerful, all-knowing, and caring super natural being (traditionally labeled as 'god'). If we can both agree that this is bad, and that it does happen, then that leads to a few uncomfortable (for you anyways) conclusions. So either your god doesn't have the power to save the girls, doesn't care to, or doesn't exist.

Now you do have another option, and that is to attempt to argue that the rape, torture, and killing of innocent girls is somehow not bad or worthy of the attention of an all-powerful, all-knowing, and caring god. But in doing so I think it would do nothing but show a monstrous lack of empathy on your part, and probably come close to disqualify you as a sane member of the human race.

The Problem of Evil has always been the discrepancy between the world we live in, and the world that is to be expected given the traditional attributes claimed for the god of theism. The two are simply incompatible, so either the universe must change or the definition must change. Since most apologists can never change their definition of their god to violate their Bibles, they find themselves in the untenable position of arguing absurdities like the justification of suffering or trying to argue against the observable state of the universe.

Seeing as how Heywwod didn't bother to respond to this, but had time to jump into the Matter and Energy debate, is it too early to assert victory on this one? Consider

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13-09-2013, 02:05 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe,
(12-09-2013 07:32 PM)childeye Wrote:  Semantics. It could be said everything that exists is evidence of God. It's all how one defines the term God. In it's most common usage it is an ultimate Truth of all things, the beginning and the end, etc... Hence there are false gods just as numerous as peoples opinions of what that Truth is.
It seems to me the most common usage is an angry deity that needs to be appeased and constantly worshiped by an army of self denying sycophants. But, using your definition, God is love, you have no evidence that an emotion generated by our brain, dictated by our genes, is the embodiment of a universal being. To claim "God is the truth of all things" is the same as saying "God is the universe, or all universes". Even if this were true, God is still not a "creator" needing or demanding of worship, attention, sacrifice, money or with an interest in our eating, working, and sexual habits, definitely not a moral "law giver", and definitely not love. The study of the universe (god) can be done through observation, experimentation and measurement without praying, grovelling, self chastisement, cannibalistic blood rites, and submission to religious authorities.
Your constant dodging and weaving will not help you to avoid the fact that you have ZERO data to support your beliefs.
But let me be clear. I do not believe in anything. I understand that phenomena leave evidence of their occurrence. This evidence can be gathered, observed measured and analyzed to create a model demonstrating how systems (biological, chemical, cosmological, or divine if such a thing existed) operate leading us to an understanding of the universe. There is no necessary, reasonable, or even useful purpose to assert that "god is the universe" or that "god is love" or that any of these "beings" is your friend. If you present an argument that is not based on feelings, intuition, or shifting definitions, but rather, on evidence and reason, I will give it honest consideration.

You can lead a theist to reason, but, you cannot make him think.
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13-09-2013, 02:07 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
Well, childeye, the atheists are cheating, of course:

They are implying an omnipotent being with free will cannot do things outside of natural law... or implying special knowledge that Jesus and the prophets were doing "supernatural things" in the texts.

Isn’t that what scientists say when they don’t want god in an evolution gap? “We didn’t see X but it looks like X happened and we don’t yet know how X happened?” Why can’t a Christian say, “Jesus did something amazing but we don’t know yet know what mechanism He used?”
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13-09-2013, 02:12 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(13-09-2013 02:07 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Well, childeye, the atheists are cheating, of course:

They are implying an omnipotent being with free will cannot do things outside of natural law... or implying special knowledge that Jesus and the prophets were doing "supernatural things" in the texts.

Isn’t that what scientists say when they don’t want god in an evolution gap? “We didn’t see X but it looks like X happened and we don’t yet know how X happened?” Why can’t a Christian say, “Jesus did something amazing but we don’t know yet know what mechanism He used?”

Yes, the atheists are cheating by only using nature to describe nature and are rejecting the idea that any being is capable of breaking the laws of nature.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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13-09-2013, 02:16 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(12-09-2013 09:38 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(12-09-2013 07:44 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Mass and energy are two properties of physical systems. Matter is a physical system. Therefore mass and energy are properties of matter. Mass and energy are characteristics of matter, not the ingredients of matter.

Except no, because that is not how the terms are defined in physics. 'Matter' is not a well-defined scientific term. I provided to contexts in which it was used.

If that is how you are defining it; sure. You're free to do so.

Well I don't want to get into an argument about physics definitions. It seemed to me that some in this thread are conflating mass with matter. Mass and matter are not the same. One is a thing, the other is a property of a thing.

The main point I want to bring to this thread is that on the scale of all things observable, humans land on the large size(just barely) and the portion of the scale in which life happens is right in the middle.

I find it silly that some claim there is no God because we are small in size compared to stars. I would think our size...that the fact that we are at the center of things(in terms of scale)....is a better argument for theism then the argument that we are specks compared to stars means there is no God.

Both arguments are pretty weak, but If I had to decide whether or not God exists solely on these two arguments, I'd choose theism and its not even close.
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