After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
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13-09-2013, 04:44 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(13-09-2013 02:16 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The main point I want to bring to this thread is that on the scale of all things observable, humans land on the large size(just barely) and the portion of the scale in which life happens is right in the middle.

I find it silly that some claim there is no God because we are small in size compared to stars. I would think our size...that the fact that we are at the center of things(in terms of scale)....is a better argument for theism then the argument that we are specks compared to stars means there is no God.

Both arguments are pretty weak, but If I had to decide whether or not God exists solely on these two arguments, I'd choose theism and its not even close.


Wow, is making shit up a 'god granted' ability for you, or was it part of the correspondence course?


Life is at base, complex chemical reactions. So of course we could not be too much larger or smaller than we are because of the nature of the universe. Life as we know it does not exist on the scale of atom, or on the scale of stars. So your assertions are empty as usual. Not only that but our very perception is limited by our size. For all we know the entire observable universe exists inside a solid sphere, itself within a container alongside other universes in a box on a scale that defies our comprehension. Likewise things could be taken in the opposite direction. We simply do not know, nor will probably ever be able to know about things possibly smaller than a Planc unit or larger than the observable universe. They could exist, but we'll probably never know if they do. My point being is that your argument for theism from our apparent average size in the scale of things is vapid in the extreme.

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13-09-2013, 05:53 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe,
(13-09-2013 02:07 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Well, childeye, the atheists are cheating, of course:

They are implying an omnipotent being with free will cannot do things outside of natural law... or implying special knowledge that Jesus and the prophets were doing "supernatural things" in the texts.

Isn’t that what scientists say when they don’t want god in an evolution gap? “We didn’t see X but it looks like X happened and we don’t yet know how X happened?” Why can’t a Christian say, “Jesus did something amazing but we don’t know yet know what mechanism He used?”
No. We are saying that an undiscovered natural explanation is highly more likely than deus ex machina. Instead of pretending to "know" because a sky spook talked to some bronze-aged barbarian goat herders, WE admit the truth. We DON'T know. And neither do you. I give scripture the same level of credibility afforded to Mark Dreher. He thinks he's talking to to god, but, I have no reason or obligation to consider it valid. I do have a suspicion that he's bat-shit crazy. Hobo The authors of scripture claimed this too. They were the Mark Dreher's of their day.
As for omnipotent beings, it simply is inconsistent with the observable, measurable data. Provide a body of measurable, verifiable data which eliminates all possible natural explanation, either discovered or undiscovered. When you can prove the absence of possible natural causes, then you can claim "God" exists.

BTW, from Mirriam-Webster's website:
su·per·nat·u·ral
adjective \ˌsü-pər-ˈna-chə-rəl, -ˈnach-rəl\

: unable to be explained by science or the laws of nature : of, relating to, or seeming to come from magic, a god, etc.
Full Definition of SUPERNATURAL
1: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil
2a : departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature
b : attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit)

The term supernatural applies.
And before you say it, there is a difference between what is scientifically unexplainable and those things which have not yet been explained. Everything which has yet to be examined scientifically has yet to be explained by science.
We will continue to push back the receding horizon of ignorance. Where's your lunch BTW? Evil_monster

You can lead a theist to reason, but, you cannot make him think.
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13-09-2013, 06:01 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(13-09-2013 02:16 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The main point I want to bring to this thread is that on the scale of all things observable, humans land on the large size(just barely) and the portion of the scale in which life happens is right in the middle.

I find it silly that some claim there is no God because we are small in size compared to stars. I would think our size...that the fact that we are at the center of things(in terms of scale)....is a better argument for theism then the argument that we are specks compared to stars means there is no God.

Was any of that supposed to make sense ? It sounds like absul's disease is spreading.
Those are two meaningless sentences, (apart from the bad grammar).
'I find it silly .... etc compared to the stars" is what is known as a non-sequitur, in Logic.
(Thanks for the example. I send them to my sister who uses them for her high school kids).

Idiot alumni reunion week continues.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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13-09-2013, 06:14 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe,
(13-09-2013 02:16 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The main point I want to bring to this thread is that on the scale of all things observable, humans land on the large size(just barely) and the portion of the scale in which life happens is right in the middle.
Yes and no. The objects we interact with on a daily basis are medium sized objects in the grand scale of things. Rocks, trees, animals (including ourselves), etc. are medium sized objects compared to individual atoms toward the small end and galactic clusters toward the large end. But, the scale of organic life is in the middle.
(13-09-2013 02:16 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I find it silly that some claim there is no God because we are small in size compared to stars.
You are correct. That is a silly argument. Our relative size is not relevant to the question of the existence of god(s). The relevant factor is the absolute lack of evidence to suggest, one is necessary, probable or required.

(13-09-2013 02:16 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I would think our size...that the fact that we are at the center of things(in terms of scale)....is a better argument for theism then the argument that we are specks compared to stars means there is no God.
That would be a better argument if we were in the center of the universe. However, we are not. We are not even the center of our own solar system.

(13-09-2013 02:16 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Both arguments are pretty weak, but If I had to decide whether or not God exists solely on these two arguments, I'd choose theism and its not even close.
If those were the only two arguments, I probably couldn't blame you.

You can lead a theist to reason, but, you cannot make him think.
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13-09-2013, 06:27 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(13-09-2013 06:14 PM)NoSkyDaddy Wrote:  That would be a better argument if we were in the center of the universe. However, we are not. We are not even the center of our own solar system.

We are at the center of the observable universe. Now admittedly that isn't anything impressive because no matter where we are, we'd be at the center of the observable universe. But it does make true that from our perspective, the world of humanity is at the center of things both in spatial position and in scale.
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13-09-2013, 06:42 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe,
(13-09-2013 06:27 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  We are at the center of the observable universe. Now admittedly that isn't anything impressive because no matter where we are, we'd be at the center of the observable universe. But it does make true that from our perspective, the world of humanity is at the center of things both in spatial position and in scale.
If you're saying our observational abilities are equally limited in all directions, I see your point.

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14-09-2013, 04:38 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(13-09-2013 06:27 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(13-09-2013 06:14 PM)NoSkyDaddy Wrote:  That would be a better argument if we were in the center of the universe. However, we are not. We are not even the center of our own solar system.

We are at the center of the observable universe. Now admittedly that isn't anything impressive because no matter where we are, we'd be at the center of the observable universe. But it does make true that from our perspective, the world of humanity is at the center of things both in spatial position and in scale.

So your conclusion is that because we're not special that shows that we're special?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-09-2013, 05:21 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(14-09-2013 04:38 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-09-2013 06:27 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  We are at the center of the observable universe. Now admittedly that isn't anything impressive because no matter where we are, we'd be at the center of the observable universe. But it does make true that from our perspective, the world of humanity is at the center of things both in spatial position and in scale.

So your conclusion is that because we're not special that shows that we're special?

No.

I think the reason we are at the center of things in scale is because if we were significantly smaller there isn't enough complexity to generate intellect. If we were significantly larger it would take too long to process information(because of the cosmic speed limit on information transmission).

I just find it comical that many atheist think we aren't at the center of things(and then use that to validate their atheism), when we really are(for naturalistic reasons).
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14-09-2013, 05:32 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(14-09-2013 05:21 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(14-09-2013 04:38 AM)Chas Wrote:  So your conclusion is that because we're not special that shows that we're special?

No.

I think the reason we are at the center of things in scale is because if we were significantly smaller there isn't enough complexity to generate intellect. If we were significantly larger it would take too long to process information(because of the cosmic speed limit on information transmission).

I just find it comical that many atheist think we aren't at the center of things(and then use that to validate their atheism), when we really are(for naturalistic reasons).

That seems an a posteriori, anthropocentric view. There is no center.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-09-2013, 05:42 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(14-09-2013 05:21 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I just find it comical that many atheist think we aren't at the center of things(and then use that to validate their atheism), when we really are(for naturalistic reasons).


No, we are not. Our center of perception is centered on us, because it is our perception. If we existed on the scale of a galaxy, then most likely things like atoms and molecules as we know them would be imperceptible to us. Likewise for all we know, below the scale of quarks there exists micro universes on scales within scales so small as to be imperceptible to us and operating on laws that we cannot detect or comprehend. There is no knowing just how far down the rabbit hole we can go, thus asserting we are at the center is intellectually vapid and empty of any meaning.

Once again, the imagination of the faithful is woefully lacking... Drinking Beverage

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