After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
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14-09-2013, 08:48 AM
After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
If I look at a doll house that is only 3 ft tall and maybe 4 ft wide (a rather large doll house by most standards), I find it impossible to believe that elephants live in this doll house.

The scale of one doesn't match the scale of the other.

Alternatively, if someone said that tiny microscopic elephants lived in the doll house, I too would have a problem believing that because, as far as I'm aware of, elephants aren't microscopic.

Now if someone asserted that a large normal size elephant used his magical trunk to "create" the doll house, I find that hard to believe as well.

Given the things asserted to have happened in the bible, I personally find it hard to believe that a god exists in the first place.
The biblical god would seem to have a view of the universe that equals the view from a bronze age goat herder.
No concept of star formations, supernova, how the heavier elements are made, basic chemistry and or biology, let alone cosmology on the larger scale of things.

The biblical god would seem to be on the scale of the elephant and the doll house and when I view the scale of the universe, not our place in it, but the scale of it from smallest to largest, I find it impossible to believe that a planetary god, let alone a universal god exists.

All I see is the fundamental forces of nature with matter, light, gravity, etc all behaving according to physical laws that we have discovered, not physical laws that we invented, but laws that we observe that are consistent throughout the universe.

~Fin~

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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14-09-2013, 09:00 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(12-09-2013 07:42 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(12-09-2013 06:40 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Do you agree that being responsible for unnecessary suffering is unethical? If so, how do you square this with your omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipotent god? Can you state with confidence that the suffering that exists and ever has existed in our universe is compatible with those properties of this god? Couldn't God have created a universe with less suffering than the current one, for example created rather than an evolved population and one that does not require predation, parasitism etc for survival of that population of beings?

You're not really making an argument but rather just stating an opinion. That's why the whole "problem with evil" argument atheist use is just silly. Its not really an argument at all but rather just an opinion that there is too much suffering in the world. Why is a world without suffering better than a world with suffering? For 4 billion years there was no suffering in this world(the capacity to suffer simply did not exist) but by your reasoning, you would say the world has gotten worse over time. I think the world has gotten better.

Sure it's an opinion. It's an opinion I hope one day you will share. I think there is something deeply rotten at the moral core of your being that is able to stand up and say boldly that being responsible for unnecessary suffering is just right and dandy with you. I want to you stop blinking it away, and stop covering it up with excuses. I want to you stand in judgement over God and ask yourself if this is really the best a god could do.

Here's what it really comes down to Heywood: If you don't get your morals from an assessment of the benefit or harm your actions can do to others and the happiness or suffering you can cause to others, where do you get your morals from? Are you a moral actor? Do you decide what you consider moral in yourself and others? If so, on what basis do you decide it? If you accept the actions of your god as moral, how do you come to that moral judgement?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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14-09-2013, 09:18 AM
RE: After viewing the scale ... I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(14-09-2013 08:48 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If I look at a doll house that is only 3 ft tall and maybe 4 ft wide (a rather large doll house by most standards), I find it impossible to believe that elephants live in this doll house.

The scale of one doesn't match the scale of the other.

Alternatively, if someone said that tiny microscopic elephants lived in the doll house, I too would have a problem believing that because, as far as I'm aware of, elephants aren't microscopic.

Now if someone asserted that a large normal size elephant used his magical trunk to "create" the doll house, I find that hard to believe as well.
Funny.
(14-09-2013 08:48 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Given the things asserted to have happened in the bible, I personally find it hard to believe that a god exists in the first place.
The biblical god would seem to have a view of the universe that equals the view from a bronze age goat herder.
No concept of star formations, supernova, how the heavier elements are made, basic chemistry and or biology, let alone cosmology on the larger scale of things.
Yeah, one would think he would have mentioned...
(14-09-2013 08:48 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  The biblical god would seem to be on the scale of the elephant and the doll house and when I view the scale of the universe, not our place in it, but the scale of it from smallest to largest, I find it impossible to believe that a planetary god, let alone a universal god exists.
Still not sure this is relevant.Consider
(14-09-2013 08:48 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  All I see is the fundamental forces of nature with matter, light, gravity, etc all behaving according to physical laws that we have discovered, not physical laws that we invented, but laws that we observe that are consistent throughout the universe.
Dead on.Thumbsup

You can lead a theist to reason, but, you cannot make him think.
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14-09-2013, 07:23 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
Why don't you just admit that after viewing a scale of anything you would find it impossible that God exists.
I find it interesting that as much as atheists put down the Bible, they actually have no clue- at all. The Bible says (and I know you phi beta atheists could care less) that the earth will be destroyed and pass away. I also realize that you atheists are science buffs and know that that is impossible,. Heck, even nuclear weapons could not destroy the earth, right? The earth could never run out of oxygen, right? The sun, all be it, millions of years from now could never lose strength to give the earth the energy it needs to survive.
Here is where you have another ignorant atheistic argument. The earth is destined for failure. From nuclear war or just attrition, it is gone.
So, now ask the question: How could a God exist if the earth is so small on a grand scale?
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14-09-2013, 08:21 PM (This post was last modified: 14-09-2013 08:30 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(14-09-2013 07:23 PM)theword Wrote:  Why don't you just admit that after viewing a scale of anything you would find it impossible that God exists.
I find it interesting that as much as atheists put down the Bible, they actually have no clue- at all. The Bible says (and I know you phi beta atheists could care less) that the earth will be destroyed and pass away. I also realize that you atheists are science buffs and know that that is impossible,. Heck, even nuclear weapons could not destroy the earth, right? The earth could never run out of oxygen, right? The sun, all be it, millions of years from now could never lose strength to give the earth the energy it needs to survive.
Here is where you have another ignorant atheistic argument. The earth is destined for failure. From nuclear war or just attrition, it is gone.
So, now ask the question: How could a God exist if the earth is so small on a grand scale?
I love you people... honestly I do, you are so special!

Thanks for the most idiotic set of nonsense non-sequiturs ever posted on TTA.
You'll be up for an annual award.
(But thanks for revealing yet further, the amazing state of your completely ignorant brain).
Have you figured out yet how the shelled sea creatures walked up the mountain ?
Weeping

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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14-09-2013, 09:08 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(14-09-2013 08:21 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(14-09-2013 07:23 PM)theword Wrote:  Why don't you just admit that after viewing a scale of anything you would find it impossible that God exists.
I find it interesting that as much as atheists put down the Bible, they actually have no clue- at all. The Bible says (and I know you phi beta atheists could care less) that the earth will be destroyed and pass away. I also realize that you atheists are science buffs and know that that is impossible,. Heck, even nuclear weapons could not destroy the earth, right? The earth could never run out of oxygen, right? The sun, all be it, millions of years from now could never lose strength to give the earth the energy it needs to survive.
Here is where you have another ignorant atheistic argument. The earth is destined for failure. From nuclear war or just attrition, it is gone.
So, now ask the question: How could a God exist if the earth is so small on a grand scale?
I love you people... honestly I do, you are so special!

Thanks for the most idiotic set of nonsense non-sequiturs ever posted on TTA.
You'll be up for an annual award.
(But thanks for revealing yet further, the amazing state of your completely ignorant brain).
Have you figured out yet how the shelled sea creatures walked up the mountain ?
Weeping
Bucky Boy, my favorite. Thanks for responding to my post with fact. This is what I love about you....all gay-sex...NO FACT
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14-09-2013, 09:34 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(14-09-2013 07:23 PM)theword Wrote:  Why don't you just admit that after viewing a scale of anything you would find it impossible that God exists.
I find it interesting that as much as atheists put down the Bible, they actually have no clue- at all. The Bible says (and I know you phi beta atheists could care less) that the earth will be destroyed and pass away. I also realize that you atheists are science buffs and know that that is impossible,. Heck, even nuclear weapons could not destroy the earth, right? The earth could never run out of oxygen, right? The sun, all be it, millions of years from now could never lose strength to give the earth the energy it needs to survive.
Here is where you have another ignorant atheistic argument. The earth is destined for failure. From nuclear war or just attrition, it is gone.
So, now ask the question: How could a God exist if the earth is so small on a grand scale?
I love you people... honestly I do, you are so special!
This is completely incoherent. Put down the "Jesus Juice", sober up and try again tomorrow.

You can lead a theist to reason, but, you cannot make him think.
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15-09-2013, 01:48 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(14-09-2013 09:00 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Sure it's an opinion. It's an opinion I hope one day you will share. I think there is something deeply rotten at the moral core of your being that is able to stand up and say boldly that being responsible for unnecessary suffering is just right and dandy with you. I want to you stop blinking it away, and stop covering it up with excuses. I want to you stand in judgement over God and ask yourself if this is really the best a god could do.

I never said being responsible for unnecessary suffering is right and dandy. You've made a straw man argument. I said I don't think it is wrong to create beings with the ability to suffer.

Let me ask you this. Would you condemn a roboticist who creates a conscious/sentient robot that experiences emotions such as the ability to laugh and cry? Would you judge that roboticist harshly because he didn't create his robot to just be able to laugh since crying would cause the robot unnecessary suffering?

You know the biggest problem I have with the Christian concept of heaven is the part about eternal bliss. I think eternal bliss would drive me bonkers. I need my laughter and my pain.
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15-09-2013, 05:57 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe,
(15-09-2013 01:48 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I never said being responsible for unnecessary suffering is right and dandy. You've made a straw man argument. I said I don't think it is wrong to create beings with the ability to suffer.

Let me ask you this. Would you condemn a roboticist who creates a conscious/sentient robot that experiences emotions such as the ability to laugh and cry? Would you judge that roboticist harshly because he didn't create his robot to just be able to laugh since crying would cause the robot unnecessary suffering?
Scientists try to mimic human functions in an attempt to understand how we humans work. When we can recreate things we can observe it will demonstrate how accurate our knowledge and understanding is. Understanding our emotional system has the potential to improve our health and well being.
But, what about god? Why would an omniscient being perform such an experiment? Is god just a curious lonely guy trying to figure him/herself out? What knowledge would he/she gain that is not already known? What improvements on his/her existence would be achieved?

I think you are trying to trivialize the idea of suffering. Take spina bifida for example. What is the purpose of that suffering? How could an omniscient being make such a mistake? Why would an omnipotent being allow it to occur? Is it an example of intelligence in the "design" that such deformities should occur? What about MS, or ALS, Down's Syndrome, cleft pallets, Crohn's disease, gastroparesis, etc., etc, etc.?

I am not trying to berate you. I want you to give it thoughtful consideration. All diseases are biological in nature. They are all the result of biological processes. They are not created, or designed, or guided through evolutionary processes by a higher intelligence. They are just the result of chemical and physical interactions. There is no one to credit for the good stuff, and no one to blame for the bad stuff, and no scientific advantage toward solving any of these problems by asserting otherwise.

You can lead a theist to reason, but, you cannot make him think.
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15-09-2013, 07:20 AM (This post was last modified: 15-09-2013 10:36 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(14-09-2013 07:23 PM)theword Wrote:  Why don't you just admit that after viewing a scale of anything you would find it impossible that God exists.
I find it interesting that as much as atheists put down the Bible, they actually have no clue- at all. The Bible says (and I know you phi beta atheists could care less) that the earth will be destroyed and pass away. I also realize that you atheists are science buffs and know that that is impossible,. Heck, even nuclear weapons could not destroy the earth, right? The earth could never run out of oxygen, right? The sun, all be it, millions of years from now could never lose strength to give the earth the energy it needs to survive.
Here is where you have another ignorant atheistic argument. The earth is destined for failure. From nuclear war or just attrition, it is gone.
So, now ask the question: How could a God exist if the earth is so small on a grand scale?
I love you people... honestly I do, you are so special!

The Earth will be destroyed, and we won't even need a god or ourselves to do it. About 1.1 billion years from now the luminosity from the Sun will be about 10% higher than it currently is, leading to a 'moist greenhouse' and the runaway evaporation of the oceans. After that happens, then most likely plate tectonics will end, resulting in the possible end of the planet's magnetic dynamo; this in turn would lead to the decay of the magnetosphere and the eventual lose of the upper atmosphere to solar winds. 4 billion years from now the Earth will be in a state of runway greenhouse effect, resulting in the extinction of almost all life on the surface. 7.5 billion years from now will see the planet engulfed by the corona of our Sun as it expands during it's change from a main sequence star into a red giant. No god required to end the world, just letting the laws of nature continue along their paths will accomplish the end of the world all on it's own; just not on any remotely human time scale.

As to the OP, the point is that for everything to play out as the Bible describes it, the only thing that is needed is one planet. Even assuming that god wanted to create light and warmth from us through nuclear fusion instead of just making them rain down out of the sky, he still only needs one star. For good and evil to play out, for Jesus to complete his mission of cosmic scapegoating, that's all that's needed. Everything beyond the Earth and the Sun is simple window dressing. Every star beyond our Sun is an argument against the Earth-centered religions, like the monotheism offshoots of Abraham. Two suns would make the atheists argument stronger, but not by much. Three suns would help a little more. The current estimated number of stars in the observable universe is over 1 septillion. That's 10^24, or a 1 with 24 zeros behind it (1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000); and that's just the observable universe.

So now that whole six days to create the Earth looks silly against creating 10^24+ stars in a single afternoon... Drinking Beverage

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