After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
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18-09-2013, 04:01 AM
 
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe...
(17-09-2013 08:30 PM)theword Wrote:  Wow- obviously you do not have a clue. Can you give me anymore Old Testament quotes? How about the one about killing your neighbor?

No, these ones are better...

Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.“ (Malachi 2:3)

And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. [...] Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! behold, my soul hath not been polluted: for from my youth up even till now have I not eaten of that which dieth of itself, or is torn in pieces; neither came there abominable flesh into my mouth. Then he said unto me, Lo, I have given thee cow's dung for man's dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith.“ (Ezekiel 4:12, 14-15)

Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)

Designate a place outside the camp where you can go to relieve yourself. As part of your equipment have something to dig with, and when you relieve yourself, dig a hole and cover up your excrement. For the Lord your God moves about in your camp to protect you and to deliver your enemies to you. Your camp must be holy, so that he will not see among you anything indecent and turn away from you.“ (Deuteronomy 23:12-14)

The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.“ (Deut. 28:56-57)

But the commander replied, 'Was it only to your master and you that my master sent me to say these things, and not to the people sitting on the wall--who, like you, will have to eat their own excrement and drink their own urine?'“ (2 Kings 18:27)

Thou art filled with shame for glory: drink thou also, and let thy foreskin be uncovered...“ (Habakkuk 2:16)

Yet he shall perish for ever like his own dung: they which have seen him shall say, Where is he?“ (Job 20:7)

This phrase is interesting - "perish like one's own dung." And then Christians accuse us of using bad language. Laughat
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18-09-2013, 06:59 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(15-09-2013 01:48 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(14-09-2013 09:00 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Sure it's an opinion. It's an opinion I hope one day you will share. I think there is something deeply rotten at the moral core of your being that is able to stand up and say boldly that being responsible for unnecessary suffering is just right and dandy with you. I want to you stop blinking it away, and stop covering it up with excuses. I want to you stand in judgement over God and ask yourself if this is really the best a god could do.
I never said being responsible for unnecessary suffering is right and dandy. You've made a straw man argument. I said I don't think it is wrong to create beings with the ability to suffer.

The difference between the "strawman" here and your actual argument is marginal, and plays directly back into the problem of evil as I have stated it to you if God has the three properties of omnibenvolence, omnipotence, and omniscience. You say right here that you do not think it is wrong to be responsible the suffering of created beings. This holds for a non-omniscient being, but not for an omniscient being. I suggest to you that the two differences between my statement of your argument and your statement of your argument are a. that you withhold the concept of any of this suffering being "unnecessary", and b. that you withhold responsibility for god for the unnecessary suffering of his creations based on an analogy to a non-omniopotent creator.

Here is the argument I'm making more or less in full:

A.1. God has the power and the foresight to recognise and be responsible for the suffering of his created beings prior to creating them
A.2. God created beings at a "time" that his power and foresight were available to him
A.3. Therefore, God is responsible for the suffering of his created beings.

B.1. God is responsible for the suffering of his created beings.
B.2. Some suffering is unnecessary. We can accept that God has some legitimate purposes that require some suffering, however the level of suffering in the universe especially in an old universe model exceeds the level required to achieve legitimate purposes.
B.3. Therefore, God is responsible for the unnecessary suffering of his created beings.

C.1. God is omnibenvolent.
C.2. God is responsible for the unnecessary suffering of his created beings.
C.3. As these premises are inconsistent with each other, one or both are false. If God exists he is not omnibenovelent. The Christian God is omnibenevolent, therefore the Christian God does not exist. Unless you are a Calvanist or similar that does not attribute omnibenovolence to their God.

You can deny or argue with A.3 and/or B.2. It's possible that God has a legitimate purpose that is completely unknown to us or outside our comprehension, but I put it to you that to make that argument seriously you must set aside your humanity and become the moral monster you worship. It's ok to say genocide is wrong. It's ok to say that if someone were to knowingly create the universe as is and not better than it is with respect to the condition of suffering when they had the power and foresight necessary to make it better... then that isn't omnibenevolent. It's ok to look god's morality in the eye and spit. The day you do is the day you are reborn into a morality that is no longer twisted and brittle, no longer handed to you, no longer stained with blood.

(15-09-2013 01:48 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Let me ask you this. Would you condemn a roboticist who creates a conscious/sentient robot that experiences emotions such as the ability to laugh and cry? Would you judge that roboticist harshly because he didn't create his robot to just be able to laugh since crying would cause the robot unnecessary suffering?
It isn't necessary for me to judge god as morally bad for his actions, but simply to point out the conflict between omnibenevolence, omnipotence, omniscience, and the state and history of this universe. That is sufficient to show that those properties are not met simulatenously. If a god exists, it isn't the one mainstream Christians worship.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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18-09-2013, 01:03 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(18-09-2013 06:59 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Here is the argument I'm making more or less in full:

A.1. God has the power and the foresight to recognise and be responsible for the suffering of his created beings prior to creating them
A.2. God created beings at a "time" that his power and foresight were available to him
A.3. Therefore, God is responsible for the suffering of his created beings.

B.1. God is responsible for the suffering of his created beings.
B.2. Some suffering is unnecessary. We can accept that God has some legitimate purposes that require some suffering, however the level of suffering in the universe especially in an old universe model exceeds the level required to achieve legitimate purposes.
B.3. Therefore, God is responsible for the unnecessary suffering of his created beings.

C.1. God is omnibenvolent.
C.2. God is responsible for the unnecessary suffering of his created beings.
C.3. As these premises are inconsistent with each other, one or both are false. If God exists he is not omnibenovelent. The Christian God is omnibenevolent, therefore the Christian God does not exist. Unless you are a Calvanist or similar that does not attribute omnibenovolence to their God.

This isn't an argument. It is the rendering of an opinion. It is essentially, "I think there is too much suffering in the world, therefore God can't be omnibenevolent".

You agree that some suffering is good, you just don't like the amount.
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18-09-2013, 01:55 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
The basement of my house often floods during a strong rain storm. Bad foundations in need of repair.
I have a sump pump that pumps the water out when it reaches a certain level.

Now if I look into the basement and I have 2 ft of water, I know the pump is not working.
If I had an infinite pump with infinite power that could never break down, but I still saw 2 ft of water in my basement, I would have to wonder if the pump was there at all.
If it was there it should be doing what it was designed to do by it's very definition.

If an omnibenevolent god isn't doing his job or doesn't exist, it should be quite apparent.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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18-09-2013, 04:13 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(18-09-2013 01:03 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(18-09-2013 06:59 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Here is the argument I'm making more or less in full:

A.1. God has the power and the foresight to recognise and be responsible for the suffering of his created beings prior to creating them
A.2. God created beings at a "time" that his power and foresight were available to him
A.3. Therefore, God is responsible for the suffering of his created beings.

B.1. God is responsible for the suffering of his created beings.
B.2. Some suffering is unnecessary. We can accept that God has some legitimate purposes that require some suffering, however the level of suffering in the universe especially in an old universe model exceeds the level required to achieve legitimate purposes.
B.3. Therefore, God is responsible for the unnecessary suffering of his created beings.

C.1. God is omnibenvolent.
C.2. God is responsible for the unnecessary suffering of his created beings.
C.3. As these premises are inconsistent with each other, one or both are false. If God exists he is not omnibenovelent. The Christian God is omnibenevolent, therefore the Christian God does not exist. Unless you are a Calvanist or similar that does not attribute omnibenovolence to their God.

This isn't an argument. It is the rendering of an opinion. It is essentially, "I think there is too much suffering in the world, therefore God can't be omnibenevolent".

You agree that some suffering is good, you just don't like the amount.

He never said that any amount of suffering was good.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-09-2013, 04:44 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(18-09-2013 01:03 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  This isn't an argument. It is the rendering of an opinion. It is essentially, "I think there is too much suffering in the world, therefore God can't be omnibenevolent".

You agree that some suffering is good, you just don't like the amount.

It's not about the amount. It's about the purpose.

If a god makes a man suffer to learn to be a good person, that could be a legitimate purpose. The god could do that to thousands of people and it wouldn't make his actions any worse as long as the purpose is legitimate.

If there is no purpose to it (ie. a child dying of AIDS) or the purpose is illegitimate, (ie. "screw that guy, I'm bored"), then it doesn't matter whether it is one person suffering or 1000. It's the lack of legitimate purpose behind the suffering that makes it so awful.

Either the purpose is legitimate and the god is benevolent, or the purpose isn't legitimate and the god is not benevolent. And while this is just my opinion, there seems to be a lot of pointless suffering in the world. That brings us to the Epicurean paradox.

If something can be destroyed by the truth, it might be worth destroying.

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18-09-2013, 07:34 PM
After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
In a large room, there are 100 people who have serve wounds, some life threatening, others who are stable but in a great deal of pain.
5 doctors and 10 nurses enter the room and you begin to see benevolent actions, caring actions, people who can help to ease the suffering and save lives.
When you see this, you don't have to wonder which of the 115 people are the ones who are hurt and which people are the ones who are helping. It's very apparent.
What is also apparent is that they can't attend to every person at the same time. Some people will have to be in pain. Some people may die before they are able to even give them a brief triage examination to set a priority of who needs emergency care the most.

Next, let's change the scene. Same 100 people, but now we only have one doctor and one nurse but they have the super power to replicate themselves so that every person has their own doctor and nurse aiding them as best they can.

Let's change the scene again. Same 100 people, but now we have a benevolent god (which is real) looking after them.
Everyone is instantly healed and the mental scars of their ordeal will fade away quickly.

Lastly, Same 100 people and no god is present. The people suffer and slowly die, one by one.

Which scenes are likely to happen here on Earth ?
Looking at the effect, you can sometimes deduce the environmental factors.

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18-09-2013, 09:57 PM (This post was last modified: 19-09-2013 01:36 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(18-09-2013 04:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  He never said that any amount of suffering was good.

Don't even bother, once a theist is at the stage of defending genocide with a straight face, their moral compass has been shattered beyond recognition by their dogmatism.

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19-09-2013, 04:36 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(18-09-2013 04:44 PM)Elesjei Wrote:  It's not about the amount. It's about the purpose.

If a god makes a man suffer to learn to be a good person, that could be a legitimate purpose. The god could do that to thousands of people and it wouldn't make his actions any worse as long as the purpose is legitimate.

If there is no purpose to it (ie. a child dying of AIDS) or the purpose is illegitimate, (ie. "screw that guy, I'm bored"), then it doesn't matter whether it is one person suffering or 1000. It's the lack of legitimate purpose behind the suffering that makes it so awful.

Either the purpose is legitimate and the god is benevolent, or the purpose isn't legitimate and the god is not benevolent. And while this is just my opinion, there seems to be a lot of pointless suffering in the world. That brings us to the Epicurean paradox.

If it can be a good purpose for God to make a man suffer to learn to be good, then why can't it be a good purpose for God to make humanity suffer to learn to be good?

Regarding the amount of pointless suffering that exists in the world: How much of that do we create ourselves, and how much of that exist simply because we haven't stopped it? Instead of making sure everyone in the world is fed, we buy tanks to kill and mame brown people. How many more diseases could we cure if we spent the time and energy trying to cure them instead of trying to pick hot stocks?

Perhaps God has given us the power to stop all pointless suffering, yet we(as in humanity) choose not too.
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19-09-2013, 05:54 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(19-09-2013 04:36 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If it can be a good purpose for God to make a man suffer to learn to be good, then why can't it be a good purpose for God to make humanity suffer to learn to be good?

An all powerful creator could just make us good, no suffering required; the suffering is an unnecessary step.


(19-09-2013 04:36 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Regarding the amount of pointless suffering that exists in the world: How much of that do we create ourselves, and how much of that exist simply because we haven't stopped it?

Do we have the ability to stop hurricanes, volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, and floods? An all powerful creator could have made a world without these things, but apparently didn't; they are an unnecessary cause of suffering in the world.


(19-09-2013 04:36 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Instead of making sure everyone in the world is fed, we buy tanks to kill and mame[sic] brown people.

An all powerful creator could have made us unable to inflict harm, or to be harmed. He could intervene to turn every bullet fired with murderous intent into a harmless popcorn kernel. He could have, but apparently chooses not to.


(19-09-2013 04:36 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  How many more diseases could we cure if we spent the time and energy trying to cure them instead of trying to pick hot stocks?

How many less would we have to cure with science if an all powerful creator hadn't created them in the first place?


(19-09-2013 04:36 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Perhaps God has given us the power to stop all pointless suffering, yet we(as in humanity) choose not too.

Possibly because he created too many of us to be as delusional and unimaginative as you? Laughat

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