After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
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05-09-2013, 07:56 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(05-09-2013 07:10 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(29-08-2013 10:06 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  After reviewing the SIZE of the universe, I find it illogical to say we can assert we have knowledge god exists nowhere and at no time within. After reviewing the SCALE of the universe, I realized we might not see god who is too big or too far beyond our puny intellect.

I'm confused. Are you claiming that god exists within the universe as a physical being that we could find. I would have thought you would go for an "outside of the universe" model, in which case the size of the universe would be somewhat irrelevant.

The only real theological argument I think you can make out of the size of the universe is an attempt to further refute a traditional geocentrist model which some would claim is still itself present in Christian theology in the form of the idea that the universe was created for us. The size of the universe impacts this argument by highlighting the small amount of the universe that is in fact dedicated to our use, which suggests that the remainder is waste. The conventional counterargument to this waste argument is that God is infinite and therefore has no concept of waste. The same model plays out with evolution. Why would God create a universe for us that was empty of us for 13.7 billion years? Why a planet empty of us for 4.5 billion? Why use the wasteful, deadly process of evolution to produce us? It seems that we don't have the central value and place in the universe that Christian theology suggests we should.


It's all just another goalpost shift, isn't it? Gods used to live at the top of the mountains, until we climbed to the top of those mansions. Then the gods moved up into the sky and below the sea, until we invented powered flight and submersibles. Then the gods moved back out into outer space, and we eventually made it up there as well. Now the gods exist beyond our reach again, until we once again reach wherever they are supposed to be hiding now. The gods are always perpetually just out of reach, quite convenient for the faithful isn't it?


Also here is a beautiful video about how the size of the universe is an argument in favor of atheism.




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06-09-2013, 02:16 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
Quote:I'm confused. Are you claiming that god exists within the universe as a physical being that we could find. I would have thought you would go for an "outside of the universe" model, in which case the size of the universe would be somewhat irrelevant.

Do I need to? How is it that some on this forum are claiming a titanic, almost immeasurabe degree of special knowledge, that nowhere at no time with no species on no planet or other celestial body or in a vacuum or in any SCALE of contact did a deity ever contact anyone? I don't need to go outside the time-space we're aware of for that.

Quote:The only real theological argument I think you can make out of the size of the universe is an attempt to further refute a traditional geocentrist model which some would claim is still itself present in Christian theology in the form of the idea that the universe was created for us. The size of the universe impacts this argument by highlighting the small amount of the universe that is in fact dedicated to our use, which suggests that the remainder is waste. The conventional counterargument to this waste argument is that God is infinite and therefore has no concept of waste. The same model plays out with evolution. Why would God create a universe for us that was empty of us for 13.7 billion years? Why a planet empty of us for 4.5 billion? Why use the wasteful, deadly process of evolution to produce us? It seems that we don't have the central value and place in the universe that Christian theology suggests we should.

For one possible solution, if the Earth was near the center of an expanding singularity, relatively few years would have elapsed here while many years elapsed at space's "edge".

However, the universe was not created for us (that's old school kickin' Medieval Roman style) but man was created to serve a role in a cosmic play for the benefit of angels, god, etc.). And why couldn't there be other beings on other worlds who experienced appearances of the Christ? Of course there could.
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06-09-2013, 02:17 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
Quote:It's all just another goalpost shift, isn't it? Gods used to live at the top of the mountains, until we climbed to the top of those mansions. Then the gods moved up into the sky and below the sea, until we invented powered flight and submersibles. Then the gods moved back out into outer space, and we eventually made it up there as well. Now the gods exist beyond our reach again, until we once again reach wherever they are supposed to be hiding now. The gods are always perpetually just out of reach, quite convenient for the faithful isn't it?

Also here is a beautiful video about how the size of the universe is an argument in favor of atheism.

A great syllogism. It works. NOW look at the biblical paradigm, which never shifted goalposts and always said god's ways, let alone god's domain, is beyond visible space (implied, I wouldn't waste our time arguing this) and the Bible never claimed god is on a mountain ala Valhalla and Mt. Olympus and etc. Christianity is a thinking person's religion. Smile
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06-09-2013, 02:26 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(06-09-2013 02:17 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:It's all just another goalpost shift, isn't it? Gods used to live at the top of the mountains, until we climbed to the top of those mansions. Then the gods moved up into the sky and below the sea, until we invented powered flight and submersibles. Then the gods moved back out into outer space, and we eventually made it up there as well. Now the gods exist beyond our reach again, until we once again reach wherever they are supposed to be hiding now. The gods are always perpetually just out of reach, quite convenient for the faithful isn't it?

Also here is a beautiful video about how the size of the universe is an argument in favor of atheism.

A great syllogism. It works. NOW look at the biblical paradigm, which never shifted goalposts and always said god's ways, let alone god's domain, is beyond visible space (implied, I wouldn't waste our time arguing this) and the Bible never claimed god is on a mountain ala Valhalla and Mt. Olympus and etc. Christianity is a thinking person's religion. Smile

Christianity moved ALL the goalposts. There is no "Biblical paradigm". There are many "Biblical paradigms". Christianity is the dunce's religion, specifically created (by Saul of Tarsus), to SHIFT the goalposts. The Bible is nothing, if NOT, "shifting goalposts". The examples are countless. The very names of NT vs OT is a prime example.

Are you suffering from memory lapses ?
Have you had an Alzheimer's evaluation, gramps ?
Have you fallen, and can't get up ?
Are you on drugs ?
Are you drunk ?

Have a nice weekend Pleasy, and whatever you do, DON'T bore your poor hapless congregation with THIS crap.

Tongue

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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07-09-2013, 03:54 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(06-09-2013 02:17 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  A great syllogism. It works. NOW look at the biblical paradigm, which never shifted goalposts and always said god's ways, let alone god's domain, is beyond visible space (implied, I wouldn't waste our time arguing this) and the Bible never claimed god is on a mountain ala Valhalla and Mt. Olympus and etc. Christianity is a thinking person's religion. Smile

Bullshit, and you've been here long enough to know why. The god of the OT is different from the god of the NT.

In the OT, god is personal. He actually intervenes often, shows himself personally, presents himself and talks to Abraham, and even wrestles with Jacob. He recognizes the existence of other gods, but demands that he be worshiped above all others. He is creator of both good and evil, but lacks the power to overcome chariots of iron. He is a jealous god.

In the NT god becomes a 3-in-1 amalgamation that nobody has ever been ever to agree upon. Satan and other demons become the go-to bad guys, attempting to truly absolve god of taking responsibility for evil. With this god comes both the new concepts of salvation and Hell.

Not only has the goal post shifted out of the stadium, it went and changed sports too. Drinking Beverage

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07-09-2013, 04:54 AM
 
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe...
(06-09-2013 02:17 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  [...] the Bible never claimed god is on a mountain ala Valhalla and Mt. Olympus and etc.

"And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the LORD called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up." (Exodus 19:20)
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07-09-2013, 09:23 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
Pleasy,
If the complexity of this universe requires a source, the complexity of that source would have to be greater than our universe. Greater complexity, therefore, has a greater source requirement. An infinitely complex being such as God would have an infinite source requirement. Please avoid special pleading fallacy in your response.

You can lead a theist to reason, but, you cannot make him think.
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07-09-2013, 02:12 PM
 
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe...
(07-09-2013 09:23 AM)NoSkyDaddy Wrote:  Pleasy,
If the complexity of this universe requires a source, the complexity of that source would have to be greater than our universe. Greater complexity, therefore, has a greater source requirement. An infinitely complex being such as God would have an infinite source requirement. Please avoid special pleading fallacy in your response.

In my opinion, what needs an explanation most is:

1) God having a character. A character is something human - it results from genetics and environment. But a god would not have those, and wouldn't be temporal. So there is no reason God would feel emotions like love, anger, jealousy, etc., because nothing would surprise him or affect him - as he would be omniscient.

2) Why would God create a universe? A perfect being would do nothing, because actions stem from desires, and desires stem from a non-equilibrium between what we have and what we want. Such a non-equilibrium implies non-perfection, ergo God is either imperfect or doesn't exist.
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07-09-2013, 06:28 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
Don't overwhelm him. Simple arguments for simple minds.

Good points though.

You can lead a theist to reason, but, you cannot make him think.
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09-09-2013, 02:24 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
Quote:"And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the LORD called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up." (Exodus 19:20)

Obviously, I meant "heavenly permanent dwelling". It says He CAME DOWN to Sinai. This is a silly response.
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