After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
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11-09-2013, 03:04 PM
After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(11-09-2013 02:52 PM)NoSkyDaddy Wrote:  
(11-09-2013 01:46 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  ... indeed, as Spirit, if He is closer to our understanding of quantum communications and materials, it's easy for Him to be omnipresent, etc. without being infinite.
Who are you....Deepak Chopra? Laughat

Ooh!

Somebody say Deepak Chopra?



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11-09-2013, 03:39 PM
After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(11-09-2013 01:53 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(11-09-2013 01:44 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Where does the energy come from when a radioactive element decays ?

Maybe not the best example to try and make your point Rahn, as that one seems fairly well understood.

Wikipedia Wrote:Radioactive decay, also known as nuclear decay or radioactivity, is the process by which a nucleus of an unstable atom loses energy by emitting particles of ionizing radiation. A material that spontaneously emits this kind of radiation—which includes the emission of energetic alpha particles, beta particles, and gamma rays—is considered radioactive.

The analogy is far from perfect, but it suits my needs for making one small point.
The point I was trying to make was that it's NOT energy from some outside source that gets the universe going, but rather it's the result of an unstable condition that spontaneously gives rise to the expansion.

The high energy state that we call a singularity was unstable, similar to radioactive decay. It lost energy and the lost energy took the form of an expanding universe.

I was hoping he would investigate nuclear decay and make the connection.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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11-09-2013, 10:16 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(11-09-2013 03:39 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  I was hoping he would investigate nuclear decay and make the connection.

Well, you pique my curiosity at least. That's a sort of victory, right? Unsure

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11-09-2013, 10:31 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(28-08-2013 08:24 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  http://htwins.net/scale2/

After viewing the scale of things, you begin to see just how small we are and how BIG the universe is.

There are stars who have diameters larger than the orbit of Neptune.
There are structures that you could drop our galaxy into and it would be like a needle in a haystack.
Large voids that contain no stars, no galaxies
And the length of what they think the size of the universe is 10^27 meters

I believe my name says it all Rahn127 (i am the universe)

Big Grin
"the earth is small, therefore God does not exist"... can you see how stupid you people are? What does the size of the earth have to do with God?
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11-09-2013, 10:38 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(11-09-2013 10:31 PM)theword Wrote:  "the earth is small, therefore God does not exist"... can you see how stupid you people are? What does the size of the earth have to do with God?

Given the enormity of the known universe, doesn't the thought that God would make all of that and only populate a single planet that is quite insignificant in comparison seem like a bit of wasted effort?

All information in the above post is my own opinion and will not
necessarily be logically sound or conform to reality as we know it.

You have been warned. Tongue
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11-09-2013, 11:01 PM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(11-09-2013 10:31 PM)theword Wrote:  "the earth is small, therefore God does not exist"... can you see how stupid you people are? What does the size of the earth have to do with God?

"there's something unknown, therefore god must exist, and it's got to be the god of the bible".....can you see how deluded you people are? What the fuck does one (as yet) unknown in the vast expanse of the cosmos have to do with the fucking bible?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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12-09-2013, 12:09 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe,
(11-09-2013 10:31 PM)theword Wrote:  
(28-08-2013 08:24 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  http://htwins.net/scale2/

After viewing the scale of things, you begin to see just how small we are and how BIG the universe is.

There are stars who have diameters larger than the orbit of Neptune.
There are structures that you could drop our galaxy into and it would be like a needle in a haystack.
Large voids that contain no stars, no galaxies
And the length of what they think the size of the universe is 10^27 meters

I believe my name says it all Rahn127 (i am the universe)

Big Grin
"the earth is small, therefore God does not exist"... can you see how stupid you people are? What does the size of the earth have to do with God?

Yeah it would be stupid, if that wasn't a strawman.






If you lived your entire life in a cave and never seen the outside world, from reading the Koran or the Bible you might get the impression that the stars are merely numerous decorations god placed in the sky simply to impress us. And when you left your cave for the very first time and looked up at the stars, you would be impressed, and you might think the scripture had told you the truth. That such beauty can pull anyone down to their knees, even an atheist like myself. For the religious the mere mention of the stars in scripture is evidence enough to prove the God of the Bible or Allah of the Koran knew all about them. But the religious never seem to notice that in a thousand pages God couldn't and didn't tell us one damn thing that isn't obvious to the naked eye at a single glance. For when the poetry is put aside all that the holy books really say is that there are many stars and they have great beauty; yet a child can tell you that. Think about it. A child can tell you as much about the stars as God did.

I believe in America it's called a 'flim-flam', a deception. In this case the dazzling of another's mind with words. Giving the impression of knowledge without any information content at all. But the religious can't see that, they've been blinded by the light. For an omnipotent god's plan to proceed, for the struggle between good and evil to play out exactly as described in the holy books, all that is required is for the existence of the Earth and the Sun. One star is all that's needed, although a truly all powerful god could simply make the light and heat we need rain down from the sky without any obvious or rational or explicable cause. Or he could make it so that we don't need light and heat at all, but of course the religious imagination isn't free enough to grasp this. They'll say 'The Lord moves in mysterious ways', a cunning bit of religious programming that just happens to stop any curiosity before it can pull out of the station.

But for argument's sake, lets say that God for his own mysterious reasons, wants the light provided by nuclear fusion and nucleosynthesis in the Sun; and photosynthesis on Earth. He still only needs one star and one planet, anything beyond that would be window dressing. In such an empty universe it would indeed seem that the Earth was a special place and the focus of creation, adding tremendous weight to the Earth-centered religious beliefs. But by that same token if there were two suns, that would bring the Earth-centered religions into doubt. That would be doubly true if there were three suns, and for each additional sun after that the doubts grow.

If there were only one world, it might be unreasonable to say that life exists on the one world by chance alone. For atheistic ideas to have any support, for it to be true that life arose by pure coincidence and conditions and elements, there must be more than one Sun; more than one roll of the dice. In a universe with two Suns help the atheistic argument, but not by much. Three suns would offer only a slight improvement upon that. The current estimates, linked to the research in the side bar, suggest that there are seventy sextillion (70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) stars in the observable universe alone; and very good reasons to believe the actual universe is far, far, far, far, far larger. Seventy sextillion? Each one of these countless chances for life is an argument in favor of atheism, at least in it's opposition to the Earth-centered religions of Christianity and Islam.

Now let's look at what the holy books say about the stars. First of all Christianity, via Genesis chapter 22, verse 17. "That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiply I will multiply thy seed as the stars in the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies." Christian apologetics will say that this passage proves that the Christian God knew how many stars there are; but all it proves is that they don't know what proof is, or they're relying on you to not know. Look at the passage again, why is it there? What is it saying? In essence all it actually says is 'worship me and I will make you so numerous and so countless that nothing can stand in your way'. It should be obvious why a passage like this is in a holy book of a proselytizing religion intent on converting as many people as possible. All religions want to be the only religion, all people want to belong to the biggest gang; it's a hideous synchronicity.

It makes us feel safe, which we must feel to be happy; and if religion can make you feel safe and happy, you're more than halfway in it's pocket. It would after all be pretty dumb to write in a holy book 'worship me and there won't be enough of you to make up a soccer team', let alone defend yourselves in a perpetual war-zone with few resources. Now think for a moment about the concept of countlessness, that which is beyond count; and ask for yourself if you wanted to convey a huge number, how would you do it to the people of the Bronze Age used to counting only a few goats? One might be tempted to use metaphors like 'trees in a forest' or 'raindrops in the sky' or 'blades of grass in a field', but these things would be outside the everyday experience of those living in and around the deserts of the Middle East thousands of years ago. What other imagery might be of use?

It's simple poetry, obvious imagery that can be found in many other works of fiction. Anyone who has been to the deserts of the Middle East at night knows the number of stars visible to the naked eye vastly exceeds the numbers seen in most of the locations on the planet. It's obvious why the Bible conveys countlessness via such imagery, what could be more numerous to the uneducated mind than the stars and the sand? But if you think that passage is conveying an actual number you should note that God has failed his followers miserably. For there are only a couple of billion Christians, so God has not 'multiplied your seed as the stars in the heavens'. Far from it, he was off by a factor of over a trillion, and in mathematical terms this is called FAIL. Seventy sextilion is actually ten times the number of all of the grains of sand on all of the beaches and in all of the deserts of Earth. So the poetry in Genesis chapter 22 cannot be considered compelling proof that the Abrahamic god knew how many stars there actually are. It is literally no wonder, no cause for wonder, that when trying to convey countlessness the Bible links to stars and sand.

And as for the Koran, in Sura 67 verse 5 it says "And we have (from of old) adorned the lowest heaven with... lamps, and we have made such lamps as missiles to drive away Satans..." So there you have it, the Koran says the stars are lamps to keep away devils. So much for science in the Koran. But there is something else I'd like you to consider, both holy books refer to the stars and the Sun. Why? Obviously part of the reason is to explain the pretty lamps.. stars. But why in particular did the holy books talk about stars and the Sun? Why do they never, not once, tell us that the stars are Suns and that our Sun is just an ordinary star like countless others. You know why. It's because those who write the Bible, just like the people of the time, didn't know.

Everyone wants to know where they came from, and that search when conducted honestly will lead you to the stars. And if you don't know what a star is, you are either very very young or you're just not trying. I'm not saying there was no creative intelligence behind this universe, but if it existed at all, it was a scientist, a physicist; not a magician. It's tools were physical forces, not people. Such an intelligence would not be an unintelligent or angry as the supernatural and indeed unnatural God of the Bible and the Koran, who flies off in a homicidal sadistic rage if you simply doubt him; having supposedly built a universe that inspires more and more doubt the more you learn about it. Quickness to anger decreases with understanding, and judging from the threats of the hot-heading Abrahamic god , he didn't understand very much at all.

The very beginning, the one true gap that remains may always be a gap, always leaving space for belief of a rational kind. Science will never take that away, and may even help you understand your creator better than you do now. But by worshiping such an unworthy, blood drenched, and primitive idol, you insult whatever creator there may have been. Atheists meanwhile cannot believe that the creator of this universe would be so immature, and in that sense atheists give that creator, if they ever existed, more respect than a Christian or a Muslim ever could. We cannot believe in your god, we cannot believe in a god that makes knowledge an obstacle to belief, we cannot believe in a god who is obsessed with one species, on one planet, orbiting one star.

Write a new holy book, put in there just one page, and on that page simply put a question mark; and then we can talk about it. Until then, the stars are on our side. -philhellenes

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3085885.stm

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12-09-2013, 04:02 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(12-09-2013 12:09 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  -philhellenes

Was that copypasta or did you write all that out yourself?

And when are we going to get a new one from 'phil'? I need my greek-loving fix!

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12-09-2013, 04:46 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(11-09-2013 10:38 PM)darv Wrote:  
(11-09-2013 10:31 PM)theword Wrote:  "the earth is small, therefore God does not exist"... can you see how stupid you people are? What does the size of the earth have to do with God?

Given the enormity of the known universe, doesn't the thought that God would make all of that and only populate a single planet that is quite insignificant in comparison seem like a bit of wasted effort?

If an omnipotent God exists, do you think it would take God more effort to make a large universe instead of a small one? If the effort is the same, wouldn't it be a waste to make small universe when you can have a huge one for the same price?
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12-09-2013, 05:13 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
Heywood, like I indicated earlier in the thread the absolute size of the universe is a difficult argument to make theologically for this reason. However, tie it to the problem of evil and you have a god who created 4.5 billion years of suffering through evolution in order for the earth to reach its current status. I suppose if you don't judge a god for creating eternal unwarranted suffering in the form of hell then you won't judge him for a mere 4.5 billion years of blood... but in either case a naturalistic explanation seems simpler than any argument that has to resolve this problem of evil.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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