After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
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12-09-2013, 05:32 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(12-09-2013 05:13 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Heywood, like I indicated earlier in the thread the absolute size of the universe is a difficult argument to make theologically for this reason. However, tie it to the problem of evil and you have a god who created 4.5 billion years of suffering through evolution in order for the earth to reach its current status. I suppose if you don't judge a god for creating eternal unwarranted suffering in the form of hell then you won't judge him for a mere 4.5 billion years of blood... but in either case a naturalistic explanation seems simpler than any argument that has to resolve this problem of evil.

The capacity to suffer is an evolved trait. Suffering most certainly hasn't been occurring on this planet for 4.5 billion years as you suggest....400 million years at best. Suffering also enhances survivability. Suffering is a benefit not a detriment.
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12-09-2013, 05:41 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
Ahh, so the ends justify the means? Of course the process of evolution has been beneficial to the species that it operated upon. That's how we came to be. The question is, how do we square an omnipotent omibenevolent omniscient god with their apparent selection of this particular method of improving survivability? Why allow perverse outcomes such as animals that eat other animals slowly from the inside, maximising suffering in order to keep their meat fresh?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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12-09-2013, 05:47 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(12-09-2013 05:41 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Ahh, so the ends justify the means? Of course the process of evolution has been beneficial to the species that it operated upon. That's how we came to be. The question is, how do we square an omnipotent omibenevolent omniscient god with their apparent selection of this particular method of improving survivability? Why allow perverse outcomes such as animals that eat other animals slowly from the inside, maximising suffering in order to keep their meat fresh?

Any "argument" we have is going to go nowhere because you are operating under the assumption that ability to suffer is bad. I am operating under the assumption that the ability to suffer is good.
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12-09-2013, 05:53 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
The ability to suffer is good. Being responsible for the suffering of others is bad. Do you disagree? You seem to have come an acceptance of the naturalistic state of the universe, but have not followed that understanding to its logical conclusion.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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12-09-2013, 06:14 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(12-09-2013 05:53 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  The ability to suffer is good. Being responsible for the suffering of others is bad. Do you disagree?

A turkey had to suffer and die in order for me to have turkey for lunch today. I am responsible for the suffering of a turkey. Did I do something bad? No.
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12-09-2013, 06:19 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(12-09-2013 04:02 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(12-09-2013 12:09 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  -philhellenes

Was that copypasta or did you write all that out yourself?

And when are we going to get a new one from 'phil'? I need my greek-loving fix!

I spent time to play, stop, replay, edit, and transcribe the whole thing myself. Took me about half an hour.

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12-09-2013, 06:26 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(12-09-2013 06:14 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(12-09-2013 05:53 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  The ability to suffer is good. Being responsible for the suffering of others is bad. Do you disagree?

A turkey had to suffer and die in order for me to have turkey for lunch today. I am responsible for the suffering of a turkey. Did I do something bad? No.

A god who could have made both you and the turkey not require to eat to stay alive is responsible for the suffering caused by you eating the turkey (and whatever suffering the turkey causes in it's struggle for survival). Your god could have made you not require sustenance, and thus never impose suffering onto another creature by needing to kill them and eat them. But instead your god chose not to. Either your god lacks the power to do so, didn't care about suffering, or simply doesn't exist.

Can't say I'm surprised that your imagination hasn't improved any either, and is still just as terrible as PJ's... Drinking Beverage

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12-09-2013, 06:40 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
So let's distinguish then, shall we, between necessary suffering and unnecessary suffering. Say we have some purpose for a being that we believe we have a right to, for example we have rat population we intend to use for medical testing purposes. Ethical treatment of those rats requires that we do not put any individual through unnecessary suffering. We don't torture the rats, or at least we do not do so without a reason that is relevant to our purpose. Rats are not subjected to suffering unless that suffering is necessary for our particular experiment, and any suffering that forms part of our experimental model must pass through an ethics committee for review to ensure that it is warranted.

Do you agree that being responsible for unnecessary suffering is unethical? If so, how do you square this with your omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipotent god? Can you state with confidence that the suffering that exists and ever has existed in our universe is compatible with those properties of this god? Couldn't God have created a universe with less suffering than the current one, for example created rather than an evolved population and one that does not require predation, parasitism etc for survival of that population of beings?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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12-09-2013, 07:42 AM
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(12-09-2013 06:40 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  So let's distinguish then, shall we, between necessary suffering and unnecessary suffering. Say we have some purpose for a being that we believe we have a right to, for example we have rat population we intend to use for medical testing purposes. Ethical treatment of those rats requires that we do not put any individual through unnecessary suffering. We don't torture the rats, or at least we do not do so without a reason that is relevant to our purpose. Rats are not subjected to suffering unless that suffering is necessary for our particular experiment, and any suffering that forms part of our experimental model must pass through an ethics committee for review to ensure that it is warranted.

Do you agree that being responsible for unnecessary suffering is unethical? If so, how do you square this with your omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipotent god? Can you state with confidence that the suffering that exists and ever has existed in our universe is compatible with those properties of this god? Couldn't God have created a universe with less suffering than the current one, for example created rather than an evolved population and one that does not require predation, parasitism etc for survival of that population of beings?

You're not really making an argument but rather just stating an opinion. That's why the whole "problem with evil" argument atheist use is just silly. Its not really an argument at all but rather just an opinion that there is too much suffering in the world. Why is a world without suffering better than a world with suffering? For 4 billion years there was no suffering in this world(the capacity to suffer simply did not exist) but by your reasoning, you would say the world has gotten worse over time. I think the world has gotten better.
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12-09-2013, 10:54 AM (This post was last modified: 12-09-2013 10:56 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: After viewing the scale of the universe, I find it impossible to believe a god exists
(12-09-2013 07:42 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(12-09-2013 06:40 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  So let's distinguish then, shall we, between necessary suffering and unnecessary suffering. Say we have some purpose for a being that we believe we have a right to, for example we have rat population we intend to use for medical testing purposes. Ethical treatment of those rats requires that we do not put any individual through unnecessary suffering. We don't torture the rats, or at least we do not do so without a reason that is relevant to our purpose. Rats are not subjected to suffering unless that suffering is necessary for our particular experiment, and any suffering that forms part of our experimental model must pass through an ethics committee for review to ensure that it is warranted.

Do you agree that being responsible for unnecessary suffering is unethical? If so, how do you square this with your omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipotent god? Can you state with confidence that the suffering that exists and ever has existed in our universe is compatible with those properties of this god? Couldn't God have created a universe with less suffering than the current one, for example created rather than an evolved population and one that does not require predation, parasitism etc for survival of that population of beings?

You're not really making an argument but rather just stating an opinion. That's why the whole "problem with evil" argument atheist use is just silly. Its not really an argument at all but rather just an opinion that there is too much suffering in the world. Why is a world without suffering better than a world with suffering? For 4 billion years there was no suffering in this world(the capacity to suffer simply did not exist) but by your reasoning, you would say the world has gotten worse over time. I think the world has gotten better.

Would you agree that raping, torturing, and killing little girls is worse than not doing those things? It is a matter of simple probability that in world with ~7.1 billion humans on it, this very act will take place ending the life of an innocent little girl some time on this planet within the next 48 hours.

I posit that if this were to happen even once, it would disprove an all-powerful, all-knowing, and caring super natural being (traditionally labeled as 'god'). If we can both agree that this is bad, and that it does happen, then that leads to a few uncomfortable (for you anyways) conclusions. So either your god doesn't have the power to save the girls, doesn't care to, or doesn't exist.

Now you do have another option, and that is to attempt to argue that the rape, torture, and killing of innocent girls is somehow not bad or worthy of the attention of an all-powerful, all-knowing, and caring god. But in doing so I think it would do nothing but show a monstrous lack of empathy on your part, and probably come close to disqualify you as a sane member of the human race.

The Problem of Evil has always been the discrepancy between the world we live in, and the world that is to be expected given the traditional attributes claimed for the god of theism. The two are simply incompatible, so either the universe must change or the definition must change. Since most apologists can never change their definition of their god to violate their Bibles, they find themselves in the untenable position of arguing absurdities like the justification of suffering or trying to argue against the observable state of the universe.

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