Afterlife
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11-02-2015, 03:50 PM
RE: Afterlife
(10-02-2015 03:30 PM)Rik Wrote:  
(10-02-2015 03:08 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Yes, thanks for letting me clarify. Just like the flat earth/round earth example presented above. The Bible says the Earth is a sphere and suspended in a void/vacuum/"hanging on nothing". Just like that. And of course, the "flat earth-demons will eat Christopher Columbus" group is... wait for it... the Roman "church".
The Bible is both unclear and contradictory on that - you are dishonestly misrepresenting what it says.
Quote:As for scripture leading science, sure, it happens. Gregor Mendel's taxonomy revolved in part around what the Bible--and now science--calls "kinds" of animals. The English Bible influenced the language and the same with Luther's German Bible. The Bachs were influenced in music and symphony/harmony/melody take their cues from the music worship of the Bible, etc.
Gregor Mendel's taxonomy came from Linnaeus, not the Bible.

This is truly ignorant and misguided. The Bachs were paid to create liturgicval music and none of there music took any structural or technical 'cues' from the Bible.

The King James Bible influenced the English language; Shakespeare influenced it more.
Quote:And I don't want to argue with you about this or fight with you--though I am sincerely sorry you were angry with me for what you felt was ducking the question. I'm more than aware (and grateful) to live in the Christianized West, the West influenced by Judaism as well. But I'm most concerned at TTA with how the Bible influences souls, not just science.
The Bible only influences pseudo-science, not science. Since the existence of souls is undemonstrated, the Bible's influence would be entirely conjectural.

I respectfully disagree with each of your points.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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11-02-2015, 03:53 PM
RE: Afterlife
(10-02-2015 04:46 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(10-02-2015 03:08 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Yes, thanks for letting me clarify. Just like the flat earth/round earth example presented above. The Bible says the Earth is a sphere and suspended in a void/vacuum/"hanging on nothing".

Citation please.

Meanwhile:

Revelation 7:1King James Version (KJV)
7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Matthew 4:8King James Version (KJV)
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Job 38:13King James Version (KJV)
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

All support a flat earth.

There are references to the earth being a circle, but that of course is flat. And it does say god hung the earth on nothing (Job 26:7). But I definitely need the citation about a "sphere" before I'll believe it.

Why insist on these when 1) I already knew about them 2) you already knew there are plausible, reasonable apologetics answers for each of these readily available (and which I'm sure others have shared at TTA across the years)?

Do I need to waste my time with "Revelation has an earth and a sea that is not THE Earth and the saints one side and the devil on the shore of the sea and no more sea and the sea is people as we are fishers of men..." Not interested.

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11-02-2015, 03:57 PM
RE: Afterlife
(10-02-2015 07:05 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(10-02-2015 05:13 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  I say this not to argue but to be clear.
The earth is not hung nor is it held in place by nothing. As I'm sure you know it's held in orbit buy the Suns gravity. I'm just surprised that god didn't know that when he wrote his book.

Good point.

And to be clear as well, my mention of it was only to acknowledge that Q was right about that being stated in the Bible.

And I already knew that as well as you. Now ask yourself why the Bible didn't use the word "gravity" or sit there and explain the concepts of gravity in a poem written 2,500 years ago? Or why it says Adam is "dust" rather than "carbon and water and compounds"? Or why I didn't mention gravity because the gravity bends SPACE which is NOTHING until "dark matter" is found--the dark matter which is conjectured to fill in the "gaps" of gravity where Christians put GOD.

I'm sorry, everyone, but when you say things like this about the Bible you sound both selfish and myopic in a presentism sense. The Bible "worked plenty good" for millennia before words and concepts were bandied about that didn't exist for the readers back then...

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11-02-2015, 03:58 PM
RE: Afterlife
(11-02-2015 09:30 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(10-02-2015 03:08 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Yes, thanks for letting me clarify. Just like the flat earth/round earth example presented above. The Bible says the Earth is a sphere and suspended in a void/vacuum/"hanging on nothing". Just like that. And of course, the "flat earth-demons will eat Christopher Columbus" group is... wait for it... the Roman "church".

As for scripture leading science, sure, it happens. Gregor Mendel's taxonomy revolved in part around what the Bible--and now science--calls "kinds" of animals. The English Bible influenced the language and the same with Luther's German Bible. The Bachs were influenced in music and symphony/harmony/melody take their cues from the music worship of the Bible, etc.

And I don't want to argue with you about this or fight with you--though I am sincerely sorry you were angry with me for what you felt was ducking the question. I'm more than aware (and grateful) to live in the Christianized West, the West influenced by Judaism as well. But I'm most concerned at TTA with how the Bible influences souls, not just science.

See Rik’s and Impulse’s responses, they refute your new assertions in totality.

As for simple Yes and No you just can’t do it can you? You are still ducking the questions.

I see the problem here, you are hopelessly deluded that scripture is true and that we owe all to it including advances in science because of wishful-thinking.

The thing is Q, you’re right that we don’t have to argue and fight...as long as you STOP saying unfounded, unsupported, uncited crap. As long as you continue doing so on this site I’ll challenge you at every turn.

Leave your “feels” at the pew Q, this forum requires analytical thinking.

EDIT: The more I think about this the more incensed I get. Preach whatever you want to your congregation, I won’t be in the pews yelling “bullshit” at every turn. BUT this isn’t your congregation, you came here for your own personal reasons, thinking that you can obfuscate, beguile and mislead. I’m not part of your flock of sheeple Q, I can think for myself, thank you very much. Be prepared to be called on every unsupported flight-of-fancy you espouse.

“And I don’t want to argue with you about this or fight with you” - wtf did you think was going to happen? At the very least be realistic...wait...never mind. Ahhh fuck it. Another perfect example of totally unrealistic expectations, in this case by both sides. Dodgy

Calm down, my brother. You get three questions now. I will answer "yes" or "no" only for each. I mean, why are you fighting with me against a god that doesn't exist and a Bible that is 100% wrong and full of falsehoods like "love your neighbor" and "serve one another in love"?

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11-02-2015, 05:08 PM
RE: Afterlife
(11-02-2015 03:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(10-02-2015 07:05 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Good point.

And to be clear as well, my mention of it was only to acknowledge that Q was right about that being stated in the Bible.

And I already knew that as well as you. Now ask yourself why the Bible didn't use the word "gravity" or sit there and explain the concepts of gravity in a poem written 2,500 years ago? Or why it says Adam is "dust" rather than "carbon and water and compounds"? Or why I didn't mention gravity because the gravity bends SPACE which is NOTHING until "dark matter" is found--the dark matter which is conjectured to fill in the "gaps" of gravity where Christians put GOD.

I'm sorry, everyone, but when you say things like this about the Bible you sound both selfish and myopic in a presentism sense. The Bible "worked plenty good" for millennia before words and concepts were bandied about that didn't exist for the readers back then...

You're right. A word like gravity very likely didn't exist then. But I'm sure they must of had a word for force. Perhaps even attraction. God could have said the earth circles the sun held by a mysterious force. But he didn't. Do ya know why? Because it was made up by people that didn't understand shit about the world. Just like all the other mythologies from the Bronze Age. Or any age for that matter..
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12-02-2015, 12:42 PM
RE: Afterlife
(11-02-2015 03:53 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Why insist on these when 1) I already knew about them 2) you already knew there are plausible, reasonable apologetics answers for each of these readily available (and which I'm sure others have shared at TTA across the years)?
...
Not interested.

You made claim that I find incorrect so I asked you to back it up. Where in the bible does it say the earth is shaped like a sphere? Either cite it or admit that it doesn't. I'm not interested in apologetics. If you need apologetics to explain where it says the earth is spherical, then it doesn't say so.

(11-02-2015 03:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The Bible "worked plenty good" for millennia before words and concepts were bandied about that didn't exist for the readers back then...

No, it didn't. That's why there are so many translations, over 30,000 denominations of Christianity, constant disagreement among Christians about what it means, the existence of apologetics, and part of the reason why the bible is the least read book in history while also being the most published book in history. The bible is a miserable failure. If there really was a god that wanted to provide instructions for morals and how to best follow her/him/it, it would be clear. It would probably be little more than a more extensive list of commandments with perhaps a few supporting stories to illustrate. It would be a much shorter book, maybe just a pamphlet, that would be completely understandable with zero ambiguity, no contradictions, no atrocities, and just the facts. And it would be just as true today as it was the day god first gave it to us.

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12-02-2015, 12:44 PM
RE: Afterlife
(11-02-2015 03:58 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I mean, why are you fighting with me against a god that doesn't exist and a Bible that is 100% wrong and full of falsehoods like "love your neighbor" and "serve one another in love"?

Why do you care what terrorists do when you don't believe in the principals of terrorism? Consider

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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12-02-2015, 03:55 PM
RE: Afterlife
1. Three possible reasons the Bible may not say "a force holds the Earth to the sun" include:

*the Bible ascribes what we call gravity to God's power
*the Bible contains scientific accuracies but is a manual for human relations and morals rather than a science textbook
*that definition a thinking atheist would say is incomplete since the sun is gravitationally influenced by the Milky Way Galaxy, itself in spiral motion influenced by other galaxies, etc.

The truth is the Bible is making an extraordinary claim, centuries before Christ, that the Earth is in a vacuum, a "nothing".

2. I don't know if there is a word for sphere in Hebrew. I'll have to look it up. Yes, the Bible says "circle" and "inscribed the circle of the Earth". A conservative dating of Job--which even with a later liberal dating is sometimes taken as the oldest book in the Bible--brings it way in advance of the Greek shadow/spherical Earth experiments.

3. I know all the pillar and corner arguments and their refutations.

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12-02-2015, 04:47 PM
RE: Afterlife
(12-02-2015 03:55 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The truth is the Bible is making an extraordinary claim, centuries before Christ, that the Earth is in a vacuum, a "nothing".

Not really. The assumption of believers of the old testament is that first there was God and nothing else. Then God created the heavens and then he created the earth. So, besides the heavens, there was nothing else. Since we are not in heaven when we are on earth, in nothing would be where the earth would naturally reside.

(12-02-2015 03:55 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2. I don't know if there is a word for sphere in Hebrew. I'll have to look it up. Yes, the Bible says "circle" and "inscribed the circle of the Earth". A conservative dating of Job--which even with a later liberal dating is sometimes taken as the oldest book in the Bible--brings it way in advance of the Greek shadow/spherical Earth experiments.

So no sphere in the bible. That's what I thought. Drinking Beverage

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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12-02-2015, 10:12 PM
RE: Afterlife
Q, Plato wrote about the Aether over 300 years before Jesus. The Aether, he reasoned was was what filled the universe. This was altered somewhat by Aristotle who thought of it as the 5th element. Does that make them divine also?

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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