Afterlife.
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10-01-2012, 01:40 PM
 
RE: Afterlife.
(10-01-2012 12:30 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  I believe God does not change. However our knowledge of Him and the way we see Him can change. Back then they saw him as judge because that's all they knew because He hadn't died yet. Their perception of God was judge and they feared and respected God. Now, we no longer need to sacrifice through a priest to make amends for our sin but we are accountable for our actions. so God is still out judge but He is now also our pardon for sin. He is our substitute.

There is an old American Indian saying I'd like to quote now...
"He speaks much but says nothing"

This answer is indeed many words but really does not offer any substance.

Here's the concept the rational mind can not get around. If god is Omni then why in the hell did he even need a substitute?

It seems the intelligent designer designed a system thats flawed from the onset.
Showing his terrible lack of creativity his only option is to sacrifice a child.
He could have created anything..a word or thing that can not even be known in any language but stops this cosmic game of death and genocide BUT he opted for bloodshed just the same. The OT never really explains WHY god needs animal blood to 'appease' him...and years later the sacrifice of his son (that he allowed to happen) is the ONLY option left for him. As you read my posts you see this over and over...god has NO imagination. bloodthirsty and is clumsy.

When you use 'substitute' it stinks of every old church i have been to. Its a nice way of masking the heinous. Its rosy language that stirs emotion. At the core of what god does...is down right dastardly.

I've never killed one of my own kids for ANY reason. Never owned or supported slavery, never encouraged rape, never committed mass genocide...none of these things....it appears MY actions are superior to your gods actions....so i am MORE worthy of praise and worship. AND i dont even need a 'substitute' to worship me! I'll give you my personal paypal account info so you can start sending in those 'blessings' immediately.

Lastly, god committed all those crimes in the OT ...somehow setting up the stage for JC so we could be forgiven.
I think its GOD who needs to beg our forgiveness.

Christianity seems to be the ultimate example of "Pissing on me and tell me its raining".

and finally...........simply saying "Gods mind is not our mind and we'll never understand him" (not saying you said that but its a common theme among the saved) is code for Willful Ignorance, a cop out which imposes the stupid card among rational conversations.

D
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10-01-2012, 01:52 PM
RE: Afterlife.
(10-01-2012 01:26 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  No. Do not include me in your delusion.
I know, right? Blush
(09-01-2012 11:02 PM)Ben Wrote:  I do feel like we're being a little too hard on him. Remember, we're all on the same side here: we're all looking for the truth!

True; no sides in seeking truth... to experience truth.
It could be said:
A Theist experiences truth within God. A Non-Theist experiences truth within.
____

As I a Non-Theist, I am limitless within the experience of my existence. Whatever I make of my existence will be ... purposeful, I would suppose. As for death... I really have no desire to stop seeking, stop experiencing truth... stop being purposeful… but I know I will, eventually. Could be interesting, might be boring as dirt -but I'll be dead so, who cares? Until then, I'll just go about my life… minding my own experience… my own truth… my own purpose... limitlessly.

Tweik, I thought God would have advised you that it's not for you to decide what your purpose is... I thought it was up to ... uh... God and the plan. The afterlife… granted; heaven sounds kinda groovy and all… is that when you get to peek at the plan - at least your portion of it? If so, that would be cool. At least, after you're dead you'll get an idea of your purpose. Maybe that will help you clear up any confusing "should'a, could'a, would'a" stuff and you won't be so apprehensive about your life.

Heart Take it easy Tweiky, and hang around for a bit. You are here with lots of people to get to know, and discover other ideas to talk about. It's a big world -big universe. You are limitless.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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10-01-2012, 01:55 PM
RE: Afterlife.
(10-01-2012 01:38 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  I am going to say this as nicely as possible. While you say I am the deluded one, I see you as the deluded one. Not intending to sound biting or rude. The only thing I have found that I agree with almost everyone on is that we are all human. Very few disagree. But it has happened. And when someone cannot know they assume. Just like everyone has to do with The beginning of it all. No one knows for sure because they weren't there. I wasn't there for any history. But I believe it happened because of the books that people who did live then wrote about it.

Books written by people who also weren't there and can't know.

Quote: So what it comes down to is what book do you trust most? And by that what opinion. For me, it's the Bible. I don't know what your book of choice for knowledge is. I can only guess it's a scientific book. this was written by a fallible man seeking answers capable of error. My book was Inspired by a loving God who desires a relationship with all mankind. Any day I will choose to believe in someone who loves me over random chance nothing colliding to create all we know and see.

Why do you think it was inspired by God? Because someone told you it was. You don't know whether it was or wasn't. However, all of the evidence says it was not.

I don't trust in books. Get that misunderstanding right out of your head.
I trust evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-01-2012, 01:56 PM
 
RE: Afterlife.
(10-01-2012 01:38 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  
(10-01-2012 01:26 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(10-01-2012 12:17 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  
(10-01-2012 11:09 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Two step shuffle. I believe in god and you don't, na-na. I got an after and you won't na-na

Yeah, have fun with that. Some people go through whatever mental gymnastics to feel superior to others just so they can live with themselves. I don't want to live with myself. I'm tired of waking up in this place. I'm tired of hearing all this double-talk. This kind of self-superiority just gets others killed. Me loving my Gwynnies just gonna get me killed. And who cares abut after? I sure don't.

Just because I believe in God and you don't doesn't mean I have an after and you don't. I believe all people are immortal. Not sure what happens before birth but after death our soul lives forever. That is my belief though. You would say I don't have an eternity or afterlife and you don't either. Naturally, I disagree. I do believe in making the most of every second of life though. However, I also want to know the purpose and meaning of why I am here. I think everyone does. As an atheist I assume you believe the only purpose for life is to live. But that saddens me. Likewise, I am sure when you hear me say I believe in God and Intelligent design it saddens or angers you. Maybe you even think I am being biased by the way I see the data from the beginning. But I would like to ask you a question. Are not all opinions biased? The theory of evolution was based on someones interpretation of the facts. Which is their opinion. As I have always said, Perspective is key. That is all I have to say for now. Thank you for sharing your opinion.

Whole lotta ass-umption going on, considering my siggy. How's this for a simple answer: No. Do not include me in your delusion.

I am going to say this as nicely as possible. While you say I am the deluded one, I see you as the deluded one. Not intending to sound biting or rude. The only thing I have found that I agree with almost everyone on is that we are all human. Very few disagree. But it has happened. And when someone cannot know they assume. Just like everyone has to do with The beginning of it all. No one knows for sure because they weren't there. I wasn't there for any history. But I believe it happened because of the books that people who did live then wrote about it. So what it comes down to is what book do you trust most? And by that what opinion. For me, it's the Bible. I don't know what your book of choice for knowledge is. I can only guess it's a scientific book. this was written by a fallible man seeking answers capable of error. My book was Inspired by a loving God who desires a relationship with all mankind. Any day I will choose to believe in someone who loves me over random chance nothing colliding to create all we know and see.

Oh Dear! It appears someone here believes the book was written in real time, and that Matthew Mark Luke and John actually WROTE the books their names are attributed to..............

Anyone wanna help Neo out here and give him the red pill?

Just know once you take the red pill, there is no turning back!

I do get a kick out of the "Loving God" comment. I guess Hitler was a loving man too..........

And this WILL sound harsh, and its not meant to....but its a brutal oberservation. The very last line cries of someone who is extreemly codependent and a tad insecure. Not saying these are bad things, per se, but it screams what you NEED and not was its FACTUAL. Indeed this stems from the deepest pits of EMOTION, no more no less.

The TRUTH is out there and in overwhelming amounts. At the moment you see the guy that was ready to kill Moses over foreskin as "Loving". Until you can really read the bible without bias or apology you will never really SEE the bible for what it is.......

I have been exactly where you are at. I used to skoff at the local public access channel for atheist. Then my own thirst for truth and knowlege (not an evangelizing atheist) started me on my deconversion and journey.

What you WILL find amoung the atheist community is largly Ex Saved that have said the sinners prayer, who have done missionary journeys, who have spent years or near lifetimes in the ministry. You wont find a bunch of schoolyard bullies who hate god to be different and hateful.

Take the red pill if you dare..............but the bible you hold so dearly...is truly NOT what you think it is. Unless you are into genocide, rape, slavery..........

D


I'd also suggest adding Dan Barker to your reading list.
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10-01-2012, 02:08 PM
RE: Afterlife.
Humans are at a point as a species that very few organisms rarely achieve, that is a point where resources are not limiting and growth is exponential. That means that our species is no longer in danger of extinction because of high mortality rates and as a result there is less need for a high reproduction rate. We can maintain our current state of overpopulation with a 1:1 birth to death ratio.

Not to sound like a dick, but you made the assumption that ugly people don't reproduce. A) that is a dick statement to make and B) they clearly are reproducing, just take a look outside. As I said in my first post though, even those that do not reproduce still try to perpetuate themselves in the population via their influence on others. They try to leave their mark through ideas or by being a role model for others. The motivation for living is still the same, to survive. What other motivation is needed? Do you only enjoy getting presents at Christmas because you believe there will be another Christmas next year? I hope not. My motivation for getting up in the morning is to live my life and to try and have a positive influence on the world. That is my reward.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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10-01-2012, 02:12 PM
RE: Afterlife.
(10-01-2012 01:55 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-01-2012 01:38 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  I am going to say this as nicely as possible. While you say I am the deluded one, I see you as the deluded one. Not intending to sound biting or rude. The only thing I have found that I agree with almost everyone on is that we are all human. Very few disagree. But it has happened. And when someone cannot know they assume. Just like everyone has to do with The beginning of it all. No one knows for sure because they weren't there. I wasn't there for any history. But I believe it happened because of the books that people who did live then wrote about it.

Books written by people who also weren't there and can't know.

Quote: So what it comes down to is what book do you trust most? And by that what opinion. For me, it's the Bible. I don't know what your book of choice for knowledge is. I can only guess it's a scientific book. this was written by a fallible man seeking answers capable of error. My book was Inspired by a loving God who desires a relationship with all mankind. Any day I will choose to believe in someone who loves me over random chance nothing colliding to create all we know and see.

Why do you think it was inspired by God? Because someone told you it was. You don't know whether it was or wasn't. However, all of the evidence says it was not.

I don't trust in books. Get that misunderstanding right out of your head.
I trust evidence.

You interpret the evidence coming in with a biased view and interpret it to say you are right. Everyone does. If you were to simply see the evidence and determine origin you'[d die before you could come to any conclusion.
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10-01-2012, 02:18 PM
RE: Afterlife.
(10-01-2012 02:12 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  You interpret the evidence coming in with a biased view and interpret it to say you are right. Everyone does. If you were to simply see the evidence and determine origin you'[d die before you could come to any conclusion.

Magic Christian barrier. Protects against logic and reason! Honestly, you're doing what many kids choose not to: You're asking the questions. That's the first step. As you grow you'll find that your barrier will go down and it will start making more sense.

In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

--Stephen Jay Gould
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10-01-2012, 02:22 PM
RE: Afterlife.
(10-01-2012 02:12 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  You interpret the evidence coming in with a biased view and interpret it to say you are right. Everyone does.

What bias do you think I have? And how would you know? And how could you know that "Everyone does"?

Your statement is ignorant and insulting.

Quote:If you were to simply see the evidence and determine origin you'[d die before you could come to any conclusion.

I have no idea what you mean by this.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-01-2012, 02:34 PM
RE: Afterlife.
(10-01-2012 02:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-01-2012 02:12 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  You interpret the evidence coming in with a biased view and interpret it to say you are right. Everyone does.

What bias do you think I have? And how would you know? And how could you know that "Everyone does"?

Your statement is ignorant and insulting.

I don't mean to be insulting. I am saying that I believe all people have a bias towards what the believe when interpreting evidence. And because even saying I have no bias is biased in a way.

Quote:If you were to simply see the evidence and determine origin you'[d die before you could come to any conclusion.

I have no idea what you mean by this.

I am not speaking to you as in only you. I suppose I could have said if one instead of if you. And what I mean is people that don't believe in God are going to find evidence and say that it proves there isn't a God. And people that believe in God will find the same evidence and say that it points to and doesn't disprove God's existence.

I don't mean to insult.
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10-01-2012, 02:46 PM
RE: Afterlife.
(10-01-2012 02:34 PM)Thatweirdkid Wrote:  
Quote:If you were to simply see the evidence and determine origin you'[d die before you could come to any conclusion.

I have no idea what you mean by this.

[quote]
I am not speaking to you as in only you. I suppose I could have said if one instead of if you. And what I mean is people that don't believe in God are going to find evidence and say that it proves there isn't a God. And people that believe in God will find the same evidence and say that it points to and doesn't disprove God's existence.

I don't mean to insult.

I only said "I" because I speak only for me.

I don't believe in your god or any gods not because I have a biased interpretation of the same evidence that you're looking at, but because there isn't any evidence for the existence of gods. The Bible certainly isn't evidence.

Where we might analyze bias is in my interpretation that there is overwhelming evidence against the proposition that there are any gods.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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