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14-09-2011, 11:02 AM
Age
A physician who has made a complete examination of a person without having been told his age could probably make an accurate estimate of it because of his knowledge of how the aging process works. But what would happen if he were to travel back in time and examine Adam and Eve before the fall and was then asked to estimate their age? Because they were created to live forever they wouldn't have undergone the same aging process we do today. If he examined them just a few days after their creation he would give a high estimate of their ages because they would appear to be the same as adults he had examined in the past.

Suppose he went back to some time after the fall and examined them. Now they would be aging the same way we do today. If he was unaware of their past history he would make an estimate based on the assumption that they had been born in the same way as everyone else. (I know that people lived longer then so in this example I am assuming that the doctor was aware of this fact and took it into consideration.) His estimate of their age would probably be off but whether it was too high or too low would depend on how much time elapsed between their creation and their fall.

Scientists who try to discover the age of the earth usually begin by assuming that the natural processes which are occurring now have been going on since the formation of the world and that there has never been any kind of divine intervention. One of these natural processes is the conversion of uranium into lead by radioactive decay. The rate at which this takes place is known so if a rock sample contains both lead and uranium it is possible to calculate how long it would take to for the lead to have formed as a result of this process. Of course this calculation assumes that all of the lead in the rock was once uranium.

But what if the Biblical account of creation is true? Then scientists who try to measure the earth's age are in the same position as the doctor in the second example. They wouldn't be able to make an accurate measurement unless they knew how much of the lead was the result of radioactive decay and how much was part of the original creation.

God's invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.
Romans 1:20 ESV

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14-09-2011, 11:13 AM (This post was last modified: 14-09-2011 12:21 PM by Peterkin.)
RE: Age
Minor quibble.
According to the genesis story, they can't have been made to live forever, because after they ate the fruit of knowledge, the heavenly chorus says: better get rid of those pesky humans before they taste also of the tree of immortality and become like us.

Start at 15 for Adam, 13 for Eve. Proceed.

It's not the mean god I have trouble with - it's the people who worship a mean god.
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14-09-2011, 11:20 AM
 
RE: Age
I just had a horrible thought.

Maybe some of the 'believers' deliberately put in obvious falsehoods in their posts, so the rest of us would argue with them. It is difficult to resist temptation to show how clever and knowledgeable we are (and some of us are VERY clever and knowledgeable), so we correct their mistakes and then get sucked into another long, tedious and pointless debate about some nonsense or other.

This way they have the impression that they are being taken seriously and, who knows, maybe confuse some younger and less experienced atheists in this battle for sanity.

On the other hand, it is possible that some of them don't even know their own 'ammunition'.

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14-09-2011, 11:58 AM
RE: Age
First of all do you truly believe that we are the descendants of Adam and eve? That we are the product of 6000 years of incsest?

Forget what your bible tells you for a second and use some rational thought and just think about that, you must be able to see how how ridiculous that idea is.

Quote:Scientists who try to discover the age of the earth usually begin by assuming that the natural processes which are occurring now have been going on since the formation of the world and that there has never been any kind of divine intervention.

As far as I know that's what the evidence points to, I'm no geologist so my knowledge on the subject is limited.

The only knowledge of Devine intervention is in books that were written thousands of years ago by various people, mistranslated and edited over the years. How can that constitute proof? It's like me saying the lord of the rings proves the existence of middle earth as cool as it would be to slay some orcs it's not being very realistic.

Here's a question for you Theo what if the scientific explanation of our origins is true? What if theists have been making assumptions and uneducated guesses whilst grasping at straws about our existence all along? That their estimates and based on a book not facts, then they have wasted your and anyone else who listens time.

I can't answer all of your points, the science I have the most knowledge of is biology and I have only started to study chemistry so I can't answer the plutonium to lead point.

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14-09-2011, 12:00 PM
RE: Age
To be fair Theophilus typically seems very open to actual discussion and is interesting to talk to. He also has a point. If and I will bold it so everyone understands IF the bible were a true story, and if Adam and Eve had existed as was written and shit had gone down as was written, and somehow their bones were preserved or if at the time of them being kicked from the land of Eden that could determine age using science, then and only then would they not be able to correctly determine the age of the too jerks.

This would also apply to aging the world and even the universe. Because if you think about it, if God was infallible and this was his Ineffable plan then maybe part of his plan is to create logical and scientific incongruities to test our level of faith in him. We would all sit there using science to age something that had been made to look like it was much older than it was and we would assume we were right because using the same scientific methods we could determine the age of something we already knew the age of thereby proving the method.

It's actually an interesting question, that we will never be able to actually answer you know until we die, but then we are only answering the question for ourselves aren't we. The question is part Creationism and part Philosophy, like a new thing all together. Is there philosophy in creationism? creatiosophy...

I personally fall on the side of thinking this to be unlikely or extremely likely. It all depends on whether or not God is a super dick or not. If he's a dick (and exists) then it is extremely likely as he would live only to entertain himself and watching us quibble for centuries would be very entertaining indeed. But if he is real and not a dick, it seems against character to be so inconsistent and to lie so readily doesn't it? Plan or not.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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14-09-2011, 04:23 PM (This post was last modified: 14-09-2011 04:29 PM by TheBeardedDude.)
RE: Age
God makes all of the laws of nature and physics....and then breaks them?
Back to your point however. One must provide physical evidence that Adam and Eve existed. This could even be in the form of the animals alive during their time. Physiologically these animals should differ from those alive today, since none of them were born and instead were created. Presumably Adam was created as an adult and at the very least Eve was. Each animal is also presumed to have been created as an adult. If this is the case then the physical structure of their bones should be different from that of an animal that grew from adolescence to adulthood. Bones and teeth would show growth lines in a normally growing individual from adolescence to adult but a created organism that came into existence as an adult would show no growth lines. There is very little growth after adulthood, so at the very least they would be missing their adolescent stages.

Show me an adult organism that never had an adolescent beginning and then we can talk about the hypothetical age of Adam.

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14-09-2011, 08:32 PM
RE: Age
Actually, I think Theo has a point here. If you assume there’s an omnipotent God who created the universe and everything in it, then he can do anything he damn well pleases with his creation (with the exception of logical impossibilities—you know, creating a rock too heavy for him to move, etc.), including suspending the laws of physics. With supernatural intervention, anything goes. Humans who lived to the age of 969? Sure—God can do it. Talking snakes and donkeys? Why not? Throw down your walking stick and it turns into a snake? Yup. The sun stands still so a general can finish a battle? You bet. A prophet rises up to heaven in a chariot of fire? Absolutely. A virgin can give birth? Verily. Dead people can be resurrected? Piece o’ cake for God.

And as lucradis said, he could also “create logical and scientific incongruities to test our level of faith in him.”

But what I want to know is this: Why is the world I live in so different from the world the bible portrays? In my world, the laws of physics and chemistry and biology never, ever get violated. No sticks turn into snakes. No one rises from the dead. No chariots of fire. No virgin births. Nothing at all that can’t be explained in naturalistic terms. In short, no miracles.

At what point did God decide he wasn’t going to do all that cool stuff anymore and just leave the world to the laws of science?

And why should I believe that that other world, the magic-filled biblical world of which I have no experience and no evidence, ever actually existed?

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.
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15-09-2011, 10:19 AM
RE: Age
(14-09-2011 11:20 AM)Zatamon Wrote:  Maybe some of the 'believers' deliberately put in obvious falsehoods in their posts, so the rest of us would argue with them.

I don't know whether other believers do this but I don't. There are probably mistakes in some of my posts but none of them are intentional.

(14-09-2011 11:58 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  
Quote:Scientists who try to discover the age of the earth usually begin by assuming that the natural processes which are occurring now have been going on since the formation of the world and that there has never been any kind of divine intervention.

As far as I know that's what the evidence points to, I'm no geologist so my knowledge on the subject is limited.

The problem is that people interpret the evidence according to what they already believe. For someone who begins with the belief that there has never been any divine intervention all the evidence will point to the earth being billions of years old.

(14-09-2011 12:00 PM)lucradis Wrote:  We would all sit there using science to age something that had been made to look like it was much older than it was

God never created anything to look older than it was. Scientists simply come up with an age that is to high because they begin with mistaken assumptions.

(14-09-2011 04:23 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Show me an adult organism that never had an adolescent beginning and then we can talk about the hypothetical age of Adam.

That won't be possible unless we can find the remains of the actual organisms that God created.

(14-09-2011 08:32 PM)cufflink Wrote:  But what I want to know is this: Why is the world I live in so different from the world the bible portrays? In my world, the laws of physics and chemistry and biology never, ever get violated. No sticks turn into snakes. No one rises from the dead. No chariots of fire. No virgin births. Nothing at all that can’t be explained in naturalistic terms. In short, no miracles.

At what point did God decide he wasn’t going to do all that cool stuff anymore and just leave the world to the laws of science?

Most of the people who ever lived, even during Biblical times, never actually saw any miracles performed. Natural laws are God's normal method of running the universe and miracles are reserved only for special purposes. But it is possible that you might live long enough to see another divine intervention. A time is coming when all of the true Christians will be removed from the earth, the antichrist will come to power, and all the events prophesied in Revelation will begin to take place.

Quote:And why should I believe that that other world, the magic-filled biblical world of which I have no experience and no evidence, ever actually existed?

Many of the prophecies of the Bible are in the process of being fulfilled. There is a thread about this.

http://thethinkingatheist.com/forum/Thre...d-prophecy

God's invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.
Romans 1:20 ESV

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15-09-2011, 10:26 AM
 
RE: Age
(15-09-2011 10:19 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(14-09-2011 11:20 AM)Zatamon Wrote:  Maybe some of the 'believers' deliberately put in obvious falsehoods in their posts, so the rest of us would argue with them.

I don't know whether other believers do this but I don't. There are probably mistakes in some of my posts but none of them are intentional.

Sorry if I unfairly accused you, sometimes my fingers get away from me when I am typing. Smile

However, you did not reply to Peterkin who pointed out the mistake you had made and on which your whole argument rests.

Wonder why not? Huh
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15-09-2011, 10:38 AM
RE: Age
Ok Theo if god never created anything to look older than it was... Then your argument is empty as scientists don't age the earth using assumption but scientific method which is proveable. If they were working off an assumption I might almost agree although if scientists had only ever worked on assumptions they never would have question the age of the earth in the first place instead they would have just assumed that the bible was telling the truth...
Instead scientist use science. They don't assume how old the earth is they use proven science to show how old the earth is. So if god didn't fake anything then they are right. And until some new science comes along to disprove it which isn't likely to happen, they will still be right... Unless god is playing a game of trickery. However you may want to hold off on your own assumptions that god is just fucking with you until you die and find out for fact.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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