Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
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29-05-2014, 11:44 AM (This post was last modified: 29-05-2014 11:49 AM by Michael_Tadlock.)
RE: Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
(29-05-2014 11:40 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(29-05-2014 11:37 AM)Vosur Wrote:  [Image: agnostic-v-gnostic-v-atheist-v-theist.png]

/thread

That chart is a little too stiff for my liking.

There is a lot more bend in the differing beliefs.

Well its not like a religious 124 points of compatibility profile, but I think for simple definitions it does. What do you disagree with?

Edit:
Atheist don't believe in god, so they feel pretty confident god does not exist, however I haven't met an atheist that is certain on that.
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29-05-2014, 11:46 AM (This post was last modified: 29-05-2014 06:24 PM by Tartarus Sauce.)
RE: Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
(29-05-2014 11:26 AM)smileXsmileXsmile Wrote:  From an agnostic's point of view:

This forum sparked my interest because my thinking is, it must be just as hard to prove there is a god as it is to prove there is NOT a god. Saying there can't be a god because of all the bad shit that goes down in the world is still pure speculation. You don't KNOW that there is Not a god just like you don't KNOW there is one.

Does theism seem unrealistic? I'd say hell yeah. However, it cannot be disproven, and in the event that it is 1% probable, it must be accounted for. Atheism is the same argument, but instead, it seems far more probable. Just like theism, atheism cannot be proven or disproven.

So why isn't everyone agnostic? Saying "I have no idea"/being agnostic, is proven to be correct. I recognize this mentality may be unsettling for some, but I've found that this is the honest truth. The fact is, we don't know much if anything. That's why I like agnosticism because it recognizes that.

Alright, now the fun part, What's an atheists take on this? Why should I become an atheist as opposed to an agnostic?

I'm looking forward to some responsible, respectful, and convincing counterarguments Smile

You're labeling all atheists as gnostic atheists.

Atheism doesn't mean KNOWING gods don't exist, it means not BELIEVING in them.

I'm an agnostic atheist, I don't believe gods exist because most are irrational, contradictory, self-refuting concepts with no evidence in their favor and lots of counterevidence, or ARE compatible with our perception of reality but still have no evidence supporting their existence.

"Knowing" that a god doesn't exist isn't in the equation.

So logically, I'm an atheist, psychologically I'm an atheist, but epistemically, I'm an agnostic. Hence, I'm agnostic atheist, not your dishonest strawman of a gnostic atheist.

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29-05-2014, 11:50 AM
RE: Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
(29-05-2014 11:43 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(29-05-2014 11:39 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Not 100%.

Only portions.

Disproving something requires for all parts to be empirically disproved. Same with proving something.

All this time here and you still don't understand that it is not necessary to "disprove" wild claims that are made without a shred of evidence to even support, much less prove them...? Dodgy

No I get it.

Just saying that no matter how close you get to 100% it'll never be 100%. So, objectively the results are impossible; however, subjectively, and using logic and rationale and probability, you can formulate a solid foundation of belief.

I'm just not going to pretend that 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999% = 100%. And that non-empirical entities can be proved/disproved empirically.

Just can't happen.

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29-05-2014, 12:12 PM
RE: Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
(29-05-2014 11:50 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(29-05-2014 11:43 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  All this time here and you still don't understand that it is not necessary to "disprove" wild claims that are made without a shred of evidence to even support, much less prove them...? Dodgy

No I get it.

Just saying that no matter how close you get to 100% it'll never be 100%. So, objectively the results are impossible; however, subjectively, and using logic and rationale and probability, you can formulate a solid foundation of belief.

I'm just not going to pretend that 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999% = 100%. And that non-empirical entities can be proved/disproved empirically.

Just can't happen.



Strawman. I don't pretend that, either.
But when an extraordinary claim is made without a shred of the extraordinary evidence that should be abundant if the claim were true, it can be completely dismissed and disregarded on that basis alone.

We have a pretty good history of the "evolution" of xtian truth claims and the various convoluted semantic gymnastics that have been resorted to in attempt to prop them up (the demand for "100%" proof against being one of them). In short we can see for orselves that xtian beliefs are evolving fairy stories. Science comes along and debunks whole swaths of these claims, and the claims are then adjusted to place the claim back into a gap in our knowledge.

This is what pathological liars do.

I can safely point to this sort of tomfuckery and safely declare that these claims are made-up fairy stories.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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29-05-2014, 12:18 PM
RE: Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
Not a strawman. It is very much relevant to the topic at hand.

Me saying that you saying that you're trying to distract by saying "strawman" is a strawman.

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29-05-2014, 12:18 PM
RE: Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
(29-05-2014 11:44 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(29-05-2014 11:40 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  That chart is a little too stiff for my liking.

There is a lot more bend in the differing beliefs.

Well its not like a religious 124 points of compatibility profile, but I think for simple definitions it does. What do you disagree with?

Atheist don't believe in god, so they feel pretty confident god does not exist, however I haven't met an atheist that is certain on that.

^^That^^... and ... I'm pretty willing to bet I've run across a shit ton of theists who are all too certain of the existence of their god. Wink
***

Having no faith in the existence of a god is not the same as saying, "there is no god".

I have no faith that there is a god = uncertainty
There is no god = certainty
***

It's easy to place ourselves under the atheist umbrella amongst ourselves - explanations are unnecessary because we realize there are differing stances.

Those unfamiliar with this, often have preconceived notions of what an atheist is.
To be fair, preconceived notions of theists may be just as prevalent among atheists... even though, many have been theist themselves.

Personally, it's often easier to just say I'm atheist rather than I'm non-theist... which would be accurate. I'm probably just lazy.

Theism is irrelevant to who I am = certainty.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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29-05-2014, 12:27 PM
RE: Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
(29-05-2014 12:18 PM)kim Wrote:  
(29-05-2014 11:44 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Well its not like a religious 124 points of compatibility profile, but I think for simple definitions it does. What do you disagree with?

Atheist don't believe in god, so they feel pretty confident god does not exist, however I haven't met an atheist that is certain on that.

^^That^^... and ... I'm pretty willing to bet I've run across a shit ton of theists who are all too certain of the existence of their god. Wink
***

Having no faith in the existence of a god is not the same as saying, "there is no god".

I have no faith that there is a god = uncertainty
There is no god = certainty
***

It's easy to place ourselves under the atheist umbrella amongst ourselves - explanations are unnecessary because we realize there are differing stances.

Those unfamiliar with this, often have preconceived notions of what an atheist is.
To be fair, preconceived notions of theists may be just as prevalent among atheists... even though, many have been theist themselves.

Personally, it's often easier to just say I'm atheist rather than I'm non-theist... which would be accurate. I'm probably just lazy.

Theism is irrelevant to who I am = certainty.

Yes.

Gnostic theist are liars but don't know it. They've been indoctrinated to think that if you have doubt in God or question His existence then you are a terrible theist... which isn't true. It just makes you human.

The strange part is that I've found numerous atheists that mirror this point of view. They will actively attack Gnostic theists but claim to be a Gnostic atheist. Sorry. It just don't work that way.

But, in the same way that Gnostic theists don't know that they're liars, Gnostic atheists don't know that they're being narrow-minded and untrue to a belief system. Both sides stand by their beliefs and feel strongly about them, but I feel if they actually approached the belief from a true rational stance, they would see that Gnosticism is possible in theory only.

This goes back to my rounding up comment and my post about not being "100%".

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29-05-2014, 12:35 PM (This post was last modified: 29-05-2014 12:40 PM by kingschosen.)
Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
Aha, I think Tartarus had a good point. I was labeling all atheists gnostic. Perhaps it's because I really don't like the word "believe".

The dictionary defines 'believe' as "to accept as true or real". I do not accept anything as true or real unless it can be proven. If I believe it, it's 100% true, i KNOW it's real. My logic is, why would I just take someone's word for something. Which is why I found that chart to be a little stiff also, but I understand where you were going gnostic vs agnostic.

I found what Taquiyya said interesting. That it is not necessary to disprove wild claims. That leaves room for error though. For any stats people, this leaves an opportunity for a type 1 error, which means you could potentially label something false that is actually true.

Am I missing something? Is there a convincing counter argument in favor of atheism? or is this the part where agnosticism and atheism split ways.

I have now reviewed the last few most recent comments so I apologize that I repeated some stuff

I recognize that labels only create divides, but is it possible to be 100% agnostic? Or do the labels generally fall theist and atheist? My apologies for my lack of knowledge I'm new here.

Edit: Fixed your god-awful spacing - KC

"If you cannot explain it simply, you don't understand it enough" -Albert Einstein
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29-05-2014, 12:37 PM
RE: Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
Yes, it's possible but very unlikely to be 100% agnostic. Our human nature sways us in one way or another.

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29-05-2014, 12:47 PM
Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
I understand your human nature comment. If I had a gun to my head and had to choose atheist or theist I would easily choose atheist. However rationally speaking, I must account for the .01% possibilities and say agnosticism.

My question is why would an atheist disagree with what I think? Maybe because what looks to be a .01% possibility is so close to 0 it is dismissed?

Lol my bad on the spacing kc I'm new

"If you cannot explain it simply, you don't understand it enough" -Albert Einstein
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