Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
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29-05-2014, 12:50 PM
RE: Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
(29-05-2014 12:47 PM)smileXsmileXsmile Wrote:  I understand your human nature comment. If I had a gun to my head and had to choose atheist or theist I would easily choose atheist. However rationally speaking, I must account for the .01% possibilities and say agnosticism.

My question is why would an atheist disagree with what I think? Maybe because what looks to be a .01% possibility is so close to 0 it is dismissed?

Lol my bad on the spacing kc I'm new

I don't think there is disagreement over our acceptance of what the likelihood of god is, I'm pretty sure that the problem lies in communication and semantics. I've generally found this to be the case on so called "atheist vs. agnostic" debates.

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29-05-2014, 12:52 PM
RE: Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
(29-05-2014 12:47 PM)smileXsmileXsmile Wrote:  I understand your human nature comment. If I had a gun to my head and had to choose atheist or theist I would easily choose atheist. However rationally speaking, I must account for the .01% possibilities and say agnosticism.

My question is why would an atheist disagree with what I think? Maybe because what looks to be a .01% possibility is so close to 0 it is dismissed?

Lol my bad on the spacing kc I'm new

lol no problem. I was just busting your chops.

And, I've never understood the hostility between claimed agnostics and claimed atheists.

Maybe be ask Muffs. He seems to be very hostile towards agnostics.

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29-05-2014, 01:06 PM (This post was last modified: 29-05-2014 01:20 PM by John.)
RE: Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
(29-05-2014 12:35 PM)smileXsmileXsmile Wrote:  The dictionary defines 'believe' as "to accept as true or real". I do not accept anything as true or real unless it can be proven. If I believe it, it's 100% true, i KNOW it's real. My logic is, why would I just take someone's word for something. Which is why I found that chart to be a little stiff also, but I understand where you were going gnostic vs agnostic.

You might claim to live by that principle, but in reality everybody believes in all kinds of things without them having been proven. I could make a long list of things that I'm pretty sure you believe in, i.e. accept to be true, which have (probably) not been proven, and depending on what you mean by 'proven', I could possibly even list things you believe in that cannot be proven even in principle.

For instance, without knowing anything about your backround:

Have you been proven that the people you think are your parents really are your parents?
Have you been proven that you were born in the place and at the time you think you were born?
Have you been proven that there is a past?

Once we add things that are judgement calls, the picture gets even blurrier:

You probably have lots of people in your life whom you've known for years; you know their birthday, favorite food, hobbies, political leanings etc. I could present you with countless scenarios concerning them and ask you how you think they'd act in response to this or that. And you'd have a decent set of recollections from which to draw reasonable conclusions, something you do every single day -- without proof.

People believe all kinds of things without proof, and for good reason. It's a matter of recognizing it and trying to find important unwarranted beliefs that might affect your life without you knowing it.

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29-05-2014, 01:10 PM
RE: Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
(29-05-2014 12:27 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  The strange part is that I've found numerous atheists that mirror this point of view. They will actively attack Gnostic theists but claim to be a Gnostic atheist. Sorry. It just don't work that way.

Yes, I've seen that as well. I just figure extremists cancel out extremists. Wink

(29-05-2014 12:27 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  But, in the same way that Gnostic theists don't know that they're liars, Gnostic atheists don't know that they're being narrow-minded and untrue to a belief system. Both sides stand by their beliefs and feel strongly about them, but I feel if they actually approached the belief from a true rational stance, they would see that Gnosticism is possible in theory only.

Oh they know it... but again, these are extremists. And if one doesn't see one's self as an extremist then it's very possible to realize and understand that atheism is not a "belief system"... it's the lack thereof. The thing a theist clings to is not there for the non-theist... that's easy to lose track of or overlook.

The extreme theist believes there is a ghost ... the extreme non-theist fights a ghost.
Neither has realized or is prepared to simply state there are no ghosts.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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29-05-2014, 01:31 PM
RE: Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
Just ripped this off from Hobbit Girl...

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I like how precise it is. Thumbsup

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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29-05-2014, 01:37 PM
RE: Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
(29-05-2014 12:18 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Not a strawman. It is very much relevant to the topic at hand.


Employing a strawman has nothing to do with "relevance to topic".


Quote:Me saying that you saying that you're trying to distract by saying "strawman" is a strawman.

You implying that I or anyone else "pretend[s] that 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999% = 100%" is a strawman.


And again, since you threw out a red herring to dodge the point: We have a pretty good history of the "evolution" of xtian truth claims and the various convoluted semantic gymnastics that have been resorted to in attempt to prop them up (the demand for "100%" proof against being one of them). In short we can see for orselves that xtian beliefs are evolving fairy stories. Science comes along and debunks whole swaths of these claims, and the claims are then adjusted to place the claim back into a gap in our knowledge.

This is what pathological liars do.

I can safely point to this sort of tomfuckery and safely declare that these claims are made-up fairy stories.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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29-05-2014, 01:41 PM
RE: Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
(29-05-2014 12:35 PM)smileXsmileXsmile Wrote:  Aha, I think Tartarus had a good point. I was labeling all atheists gnostic. Perhaps it's because I really don't like the word "believe".

The dictionary defines 'believe' as "to accept as true or real". I do not accept anything as true or real unless it can be proven. If I believe it, it's 100% true, i KNOW it's real. My logic is, why would I just take someone's word for something. Which is why I found that chart to be a little stiff also, but I understand where you were going gnostic vs agnostic.

I found what Taquiyya said interesting. That it is not necessary to disprove wild claims. That leaves room for error though. For any stats people, this leaves an opportunity for a type 1 error, which means you could potentially label something false that is actually true.

Am I missing something? Is there a convincing counter argument in favor of atheism? or is this the part where agnosticism and atheism split ways.

I have now reviewed the last few most recent comments so I apologize that I repeated some stuff

I recognize that labels only create divides, but is it possible to be 100% agnostic? Or do the labels generally fall theist and atheist? My apologies for my lack of knowledge I'm new here.

Edit: Fixed your god-awful spacing - KC

Is there a "convincing argument" in favor of not believing in leprechauns? Unicorns? Flying Spaghetti Monsters? Do you really need a "convincing argument" to be able to declare with certainty that a fairy tale is a fairy tale?

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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29-05-2014, 01:52 PM
RE: Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
(29-05-2014 01:41 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Is there a "convincing argument" in favor of not believing in leprechauns? Unicorns? Flying Spaghetti Monsters? Do you really need a "convincing argument" to be able to declare with certainty that a fairy tale is a fairy tale?

A theist probably does.

It seems to take a while to begin to have doubt... then to start really doubting ... then to start not believing certain parts ... then to start not believing a lot of parts ... etc.,.

People who come here are not all in the same place in their life. There are people here who are only just able to say "I'm a former ..." while there are some here who are trying to figure out how to stop saying that and just move on.

Shit takes time to figure out in one's own mind... especially when the mind has to be recreated ... often from scratch.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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29-05-2014, 01:53 PM
Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
Interesting John thank you for that input. Funny you mention ghosts i was going to mention Sasquatch. Could it be real? I guess... It certainly can't be disproven.

Especially for hot topics like religion, I prefer a more scientific approach. Myth busted, myth confirmed, or plausible. I guess 'technically' I don't believe much of anything. You're very right maybe my parents are not actually my biological parents. I'm at peace with that. Did Christopher Columbus sail the ocean blue? That's what I'm told. Do I know for sure? I can't say I do. I see your point and follow your logic though.

Thanks for the chart. I like it. It helps me map out my personal opinion. That chart corners me into using the word believe. I cannot choose between the bottom two squares so I guess I'm right on the line. So I assume I'm 100% agnostic/I have no idea. I don't believe or lack belief in God

"If you cannot explain it simply, you don't understand it enough" -Albert Einstein
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29-05-2014, 02:00 PM
RE: Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
(29-05-2014 01:41 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Is there a "convincing argument" in favor of not believing in leprechauns? Unicorns? Flying Spaghetti Monsters? Do you really need a "convincing argument" to be able to declare with certainty that a fairy tale is a fairy tale?

If you're honest, you cannot say with complete 100% certainty that those entities do not exist somewhere, at some time. There is no way of knowing. To say otherwise is a straight up lie.

You can, however, say with almost absolute certainty that they do not exist, so much so that you're willing to form a steadfast belief on the subject.

Because you are not omniscient, you cannot know anything in its absolute sense. This is why I go back to the 99.99999999999999999999999999% =/= 100% which you dismissed as a fallacy.

It is very much a pertinent part of the argument from a philosophical and denotative point of view. Dismissing this fact (yes it is with 100% certainty that you do not know absolutely 100% - hows that for irony?) displays a portion of "tomfuckary" on par with that which you condemn.

Again, go back to my comment where I said,

So, objectively the results are impossible; however, subjectively, and using logic and rationale and probability, you can formulate a solid foundation of belief.

This is the basis of any system of belief or lack thereof... all of which are developed on terms that individuals interpret as "evidence".

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