Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
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29-05-2014, 02:34 PM
Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
I see the atheists' argument. The odds look to be in their favor.

There's that word again, "believe". I can believe the sky is yellow and the sun is blue and there's nothing you can do about it. The word is loaded. It's a politicians word. It's a brick wall.

I think the problem is the definition of the word "believe". The dictionary says to believe something means to accept it as truth. I'm not willing to bet my life savings and everything I own unless it's a 100% chance. It would ruin my credibility if I were wrong. I cannot find comfort in "almost absolute certainty".

Maybe some people can.

I think through conversation I've found the foundation of atheism. I'm just not convinced I can jump on board no matter how good the odds look(unless it's 100% proven of course)

Good convo everyone. Any loose ends we should tie up that haven't been mentioned or discussed? Any other comments?

"If you cannot explain it simply, you don't understand it enough" -Albert Einstein
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29-05-2014, 02:47 PM
RE: Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
(29-05-2014 11:39 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(29-05-2014 11:32 AM)Alex_Leonardo Wrote:  However religions can be disproved. All of them can.

Not 100%.

Only portions.

Disproving something requires for all parts to be empirically disproved. Same with proving something.

Um, no.

If a religion says it is true, then disproof of any part of it makes that false. Structure crumbles, hilarity ensues.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-05-2014, 02:53 PM
RE: Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
(29-05-2014 12:47 PM)smileXsmileXsmile Wrote:  I understand your human nature comment. If I had a gun to my head and had to choose atheist or theist I would easily choose atheist. However rationally speaking, I must account for the .01% possibilities and say agnosticism.

My question is why would an atheist disagree with what I think? Maybe because what looks to be a .01% possibility is so close to 0 it is dismissed?

Lol my bad on the spacing kc I'm new

No.

You are not paying attention.

Atheism is a lack of belief, it has nothing to do with knowledge.
Agnosticism is about knowledge, it has nothing to do with belief.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-05-2014, 02:57 PM
RE: Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
(29-05-2014 02:34 PM)smileXsmileXsmile Wrote:  I see the atheists' argument. The odds look to be in their favor.

There's that word again, "believe". I can believe the sky is yellow and the sun is blue and there's nothing you can do about it. The word is loaded. It's a politicians word. It's a brick wall.

I think the problem is the definition of the word "believe". The dictionary says to believe something means to accept it as truth. I'm not willing to bet my life savings and everything I own unless it's a 100% chance. It would ruin my credibility if I were wrong. I cannot find comfort in "almost absolute certainty".

Maybe some people can.

I think through conversation I've found the foundation of atheism. I'm just not convinced I can jump on board no matter how good the odds look(unless it's 100% proven of course)

Good convo everyone. Any loose ends we should tie up that haven't been mentioned or discussed? Any other comments?

Do you believe in a god? No? You are an atheist.

Can you prove there aren't any gods? No? You are an agnostic atheist.

Clear?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-05-2014, 02:57 PM
Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
Ok so then I'm an agnostic atheist then? Again my bad I'm new. I'm not trying to offend ne one

Got it chas thanks everyone Smile

"If you cannot explain it simply, you don't understand it enough" -Albert Einstein
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29-05-2014, 03:05 PM
RE: Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
There's no need to disprove the arbitrary in order to not believe in it. In fact no one should ever even attempt to disprove a negative.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

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29-05-2014, 03:18 PM
RE: Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
Only lose end to tie up is to admit that you are an atheist, that is if you understand what it means to not believe a claim that is not supported by evidence.

My suspicion however is that you are a theist who wanted to try out some .000001% that ANY outlandish claim could be true so it can't be dismissed and if you can't dismiss it, then it COULD be true.

And if that's how you want to live your life don't forget about monsters under your bed and the boogie man in your closet.

When you're ready...grow the fuck up and start using that brain between your ears instead of trying to inject a god into the gaps of your ignorance.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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29-05-2014, 03:26 PM
RE: Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
(29-05-2014 11:26 AM)smileXsmileXsmile Wrote:  From an agnostic's point of view:

This forum sparked my interest because my thinking is, it must be just as hard to prove there is a god as it is to prove there is NOT a god. Saying there can't be a god because of all the bad shit that goes down in the world is still pure speculation. You don't KNOW that there is Not a god just like you don't KNOW there is one.

Does theism seem unrealistic? I'd say hell yeah. However, it cannot be disproven, and in the event that it is 1% probable, it must be accounted for. Atheism is the same argument, but instead, it seems far more probable. Just like theism, atheism cannot be proven or disproven.

So why isn't everyone agnostic? Saying "I have no idea"/being agnostic, is proven to be correct. I recognize this mentality may be unsettling for some, but I've found that this is the honest truth. The fact is, we don't know much if anything. That's why I like agnosticism because it recognizes that.

Alright, now the fun part, What's an atheists take on this? Why should I become an atheist as opposed to an agnostic?

I'm looking forward to some responsible, respectful, and convincing counterarguments Smile

Why should you become an atheist instead of an agnostic?

Well you can't. Because you already are: an atheist is by definition one who does not believe in deities; so long as you do not possess a positive belief in a deity, you are an atheist.

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29-05-2014, 03:52 PM
RE: Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
A few points I might add.

(29-05-2014 02:34 PM)smileXsmileXsmile Wrote:  There's that word again, "believe". I can believe the sky is yellow and the sun is blue and there's nothing you can do about it. The word is loaded. It's a politicians word. It's a brick wall.

I have trouble in seeing the point you're trying to make here, specifically what you mean by "I can believe the sky is yellow and the sun is blue". It seems like you're not talking about imagining the sky as yellow. But I can't understand how you could accept the sky as being yellow either, unless you wan't to invoke the eons old riddle of whether or not the colors look the same to everyone, and suggest that other peoples blue might look in your eyes like their yellow looks to them, which doesn't really help me any further. I guess you'll have to clarify.

(29-05-2014 02:34 PM)smileXsmileXsmile Wrote:  I think the problem is the definition of the word "believe". The dictionary says to believe something means to accept it as truth. I'm not willing to bet my life savings and everything I own unless it's a 100% chance. It would ruin my credibility if I were wrong. I cannot find comfort in "almost absolute certainty".

Like I said, you already accept on a day to day basis all kinds of things as probably true, eventhough they potentially could be proven false. And you probably even hardly think about it, it's a natural thing to do. When you wait for a bus, you're pretty sure it comes within an expected timeframe. When you go buy groceries, you're pretty sure what kind of prices to expect. When you check the news tomorrow morning, you're pretty sure Canada hasn't invaded the US.

I'm puzzled by this craving for "absolute certainty", since as far as I can tell, there is no such thing to attain. All knowledge is necessarily uncertain. By virtue of the scientific method you can only rule out false explanations via deduction, and posit tentative explanations via induction. You can always turn out to be wrong.

(29-05-2014 02:34 PM)smileXsmileXsmile Wrote:  I think through conversation I've found the foundation of atheism. I'm just not convinced I can jump on board no matter how good the odds look(unless it's 100% proven of course)

As far as labels are concerned, I'm fairly sure that most people on the forum consider you an atheist (in their vocabulary) according to how you've described yourself (not a theist). Your position is not that different from most people's in here. To my eyes you just seem to expect unrealisticly high amounts of evidence for certain claims to be considered false. I'm as certain as I am of my provenance that the God of the Abrahamic tradition does not exist. I'm not convinced though that the universe isn't some experiment in some grad students PhD thesis in some fabulous hyperworld, or something equally weird. If you wan't to label someone like that a god, that's fine with me. The petty ideas that mankind's been able to come up with in its history and prehistory, however, are not worthy of labeling oneself an agnostic today, I find.

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29-05-2014, 09:51 PM
Agnostic-Theism-Atheist
Hello all,

I'm back. First off it's upsetting that rahn can't have a "responsible, respectful" convo like I asked from the very beginning. So I'm not going to dignify a response to you. However, I assure you I'm quite bright. 3.7 upperclass GPA. I hold a bachelors and I'm currently perusing my masters.

I see now how it works (that chart with the four squares). My label would be an agnostic atheist.

My bad john I should've used a better example to avoid confusion. My point has nothing to do with different types of color blindness or ne thing of that nature.

I don't like the word 'believe' because it is typically used in a gnostic sense (unless you do not believe/lack belief which is different). I dislike this word because, as we pointed out, no one is 100% certain/gnostic. So... by someone using the word "believe" we're already off to a bad start, because they are claiming they have 100% certainty, which is a straight up lie. People can claim belief of anything. Just because you believe unicorns once existed doesn't make it true. And using the term 'believe' insinuates or means that you're close minded thus creating that brick wall. At least that's my experience. I hope you catch my drift.

So my original question has been answered, but I'd be happy to explore this next tangent

You raise a good point saying most knowledge is uncertain. I have not scientifically tested all of the knowledge I have, so I see where your at. I think what we have ran into here is a difference of opinion on what believe means. To me believe means to accept as truth, at least that's what the online dictionary gave me. Agree/disagree? In my mind, in order to accept something as truth it needs to be proven (not just considered "probably true" as in your bus example). Therefore I cannot say with 100% certainty God does Not exist just like I cannot say with 100% certainty there is a God. I'll admit, since this is a side tangent, I am not as prepared. I'll be a philosopher and think it over for a bit and see if I come up with anything else that's good or interesting. What're u thinking?

"If you cannot explain it simply, you don't understand it enough" -Albert Einstein
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