Agnostic belief
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22-05-2011, 04:18 PM
 
Agnostic belief
First I would like to say that this is now my favorite website ever. I admire everything thethinkingathiests are doing. I have one question though.

If the editors and founders of this page are thinking athiests, doesnt that make them/ya'll closer to agnostics? Because one can never be sure if god exists?

Im assuming ya'll have thought of this though. Angel
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22-05-2011, 04:21 PM
RE: Agnostic belief
That would make most of us 5 or 6 on the Dawkins scale, instead of 7's who are absolutely certain that there is no such thing as a god. There are a few 4's and 7's lurking around though. Anyways, welcome to TTA.

The God excuse: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument. "God did it." Anything we can't describe must have come from God. - George Carlin

Whenever I'm asked "What if you're wrong?", I always show the asker this video: http://youtu.be/iClejS8vWjo Screw Pascal's wager.
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22-05-2011, 04:27 PM (This post was last modified: 22-05-2011 04:31 PM by Lilith Pride.)
RE: Agnostic belief
The name of the site comes from the fact that Seth came to Atheism by beginning to think about his own beliefs. there are agnostics here, and even agnostic atheists. This site promotes skepticism which in general focuses on not giving credibility before proper evidence is supported. There is nothing wholly wrong in stating that you are an atheist especially if stating you are someone who lives their life with a skeptical lean. Most atheists are either completely sure or nearly sure of the lack of evidence leading to a god. The laws for skepticism state that there is no reason to give any credence to an idea, until supporting evidence exists where is the reason to even doubt your stance?

I'm someone who doesn't mind the idea of possibilities for anything, but possibilities aren't realities. They are just hypotheses. Until proof comes there is no reason to act on them.

Also there are those who take the term atheist not as adeontological but areligious. Some take the hard stance simply because religion at it's core has no proof to it's claims.

I'm sure everyone else will disagree with me though =p except about what Seth says, cause he really does say that =p By the way I'm an Atheist because there's absolutely no chance that anything exists which I would worship and submit to as many suggest of their gods. A greater entity does not get my appreciation just for being more capable than I.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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22-05-2011, 04:59 PM
 
RE: Agnostic belief
(22-05-2011 04:21 PM)Efrx86 Wrote:  That would make most of us 5 or 6 on the Dawkins scale, instead of 7's who are absolutely certain that there is no such thing as a god. There are a few 4's and 7's lurking around though. Anyways, welcome to TTA.

Ok. This means that I am a 5 simply because i believe both believers and nonbelievers have no proof of the right answer.
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22-05-2011, 08:28 PM
RE: Agnostic belief
Apparently we are not so united on how we define agnosticism and atheism, so I'll just be speaking for myself here: I consider myself both, an agnostic atheist. I see agnosticism as the stance that something can not be proven one way or the other, which I agree. When you consider the deist god and how undefined it is, I believe it is next to impossible to disprove such a being exists. But just because I can't reel in solid proof doesn't mean I can't make a guess based on what evidence we do have(largely just probability), which is where my (dis)belief comes in. I took a stance, atheism.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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23-05-2011, 03:02 AM
 
RE: Agnostic belief
(22-05-2011 08:28 PM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  Apparently we are not so united on how we define agnosticism and atheism, so I'll just be speaking for myself here: I consider myself both, an agnostic atheist. I see agnosticism as the stance that something can not be proven one way or the other, which I agree. When you consider the deist god and how undefined it is, I believe it is next to impossible to disprove such a being exists. But just because I can't reel in solid proof doesn't mean I can't make a guess based on what evidence we do have(largely just probability), which is where my (dis)belief comes in. I took a stance, atheism.

I might have the idea of agnostic wrong, but if by acknowledging that there is no proof either way, and by saying that there could/couldn't be a god, you are resorting back to agnosticism. Just because more (probability) leans toward no divine being(s), doesn't mean you should take a stance unless you firmly believe without a doubt that there is none. In my book, its like a questioning christian resorting back to calling themselves Christian and disregarding the fact that he questioned. He is now an agnostic because he would not have resorted back unless he found an answer to the question(s) that bothered him, thus changing his God to better go with his own morals.

1.(Believer) 2.(___________Agnostic____________) 3.(Athiest or no belief)

It might be silly of me to bring this down to 3 categories, but its the easy way for me to help this forum understand my belief system.

Believer is someone who believes in a textbook religion and identifies themselves as one. They put there faith into a Faith and have no burden of proof besides their superior,(priest, rabbi, savior, prophet, ect.), telling them so.

Agnostics and everything in-between believer are people that have questioned something in their own mind and have leaned either way or have stayed in the middle. If you question your own existence, you fall under this category. Putting yourself as a freethinker, makes you an agnostic. The questioning christian is considered an agnostic only because he found a flaw in his religion and in God.

My belief system gets tricky when it comes to atheism because it is just like believer. It is a person that has no belief that something exists beyond our world and refuses to believe so without the burden of proof. To me, it is just as blind as being a believer because there is no burden of proof for this extreme view. Also, there is no "in-between" when it comes to agnosticism and atheism. You are one or the other because like i said, a questioner is agnostic.

Now for the GRAND FINALE[/u]......Everybody is some sort of agnostic. This is simplifying the world to that one category.

Believers may be categorized as their belief, but that doesn't mean their divine being(s) is/are the same as the next person. You will never find (a) deity(s) that is/are the same with any two people. Thus everybody has a belief system that works best with their own values and morals.

Any comments?


AngelAngelAngel
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23-05-2011, 04:16 AM (This post was last modified: 23-05-2011 04:20 AM by Stark Raving.)
RE: Agnostic belief
Although this topic has been beaten so severely on this forum that the horse has begun to bloat and smell, I guess it's something that will always be re-visited as more people show up..

To begin, not everyone agrees with the following, but the majority here would agree. I just don't want to imply that I speak for everyone.

Gnostic/agnostic refers to knowledge.

Theist/atheist refers to belief.


I am an agnostic atheist. That means I don't know if there is a god, and that I don't believe there is a god.
The majority of people who are labeled "atheist" are agnostic atheists. I know of few atheists that claim they can be certain that there is no god, only that there is not enough evidence to convince them to believe in one.

That's the jist of it. There is a great deal of debate on the finer points though. A search of thread titles for "atheist, agnostic" should turn up some interesting debate on the subject. Or give 'er in this thread, though I don't suspect you'll get a whole lot of bites from the members that have been around for this debate a few times already.

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23-05-2011, 07:32 AM
RE: Agnostic belief
(23-05-2011 03:02 AM)TheThinkingAgnostic Wrote:  I might have the idea of agnostic wrong, but if by acknowledging that there is no proof either way, and by saying that there could/couldn't be a god, you are resorting back to agnosticism. Just because more (probability) leans toward no divine being(s), doesn't mean you should take a stance unless you firmly believe without a doubt that there is none. In my book, its like a questioning christian resorting back to calling themselves Christian and disregarding the fact that he questioned. He is now an agnostic because he would not have resorted back unless he found an answer to the question(s) that bothered him, thus changing his God to better go with his own morals.

I think probability is a pretty good cause to rule something out as non-existent. I rule out winning the lottery because the chances are so remarkably low. I rule out getting struck by lightening at any given moment because the chances are so low. I rule out getting hit by a car when walking along the sidewalk because the chances are so low. I have no means to disprove any of these events from happening, no evidence other than probability. And I deem that the low probability is enough to to take a belief that they will not happen. Same with god.

(23-05-2011 03:02 AM)TheThinkingAgnostic Wrote:  1.(Believer) 2.(___________Agnostic____________) 3.(Athiest or no belief)

It might be silly of me to bring this down to 3 categories, but its the easy way for me to help this forum understand my belief system.

Believer is someone who believes in a textbook religion and identifies themselves as one. They put there faith into a Faith and have no burden of proof besides their superior,(priest, rabbi, savior, prophet, ect.), telling them so.

Agnostics and everything in-between believer are people that have questioned something in their own mind and have leaned either way or have stayed in the middle. If you question your own existence, you fall under this category. Putting yourself as a freethinker, makes you an agnostic. The questioning christian is considered an agnostic only because he found a flaw in his religion and in God.

My belief system gets tricky when it comes to atheism because it is just like believer. It is a person that has no belief that something exists beyond our world and refuses to believe so without the burden of proof. To me, it is just as blind as being a believer because there is no burden of proof for this extreme view. Also, there is no "in-between" when it comes to agnosticism and atheism. You are one or the other because like i said, a questioner is agnostic.

Now for the GRAND FINALE[/u]......Everybody is some sort of agnostic. This is simplifying the world to that one category.

Believers may be categorized as their belief, but that doesn't mean their divine being(s) is/are the same as the next person. You will never find (a) deity(s) that is/are the same with any two people. Thus everybody has a belief system that works best with their own values and morals.

Any comments?


AngelAngelAngel
According to how you define things, then I'm an agnostic and not an atheist. I don't care so much how you define words(I like debating religion, not English), so I would just ask for you to acknowledge that when somehow says they are an atheist, they are often not using your definition, and in many cases would be, according to you, an agnostic.

I'll continue using how I always learned it, with theism and atheism being two dichotomous, all encompassing categorizes. Theism: A belief in god(s). Atheism: A lack of belief in god(s). With agnosticism being a stance on knowledge.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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23-05-2011, 10:20 AM
 
RE: Agnostic belief
Atheism is a metaphysical stance: the supernatural does not exist.

Agnositicism is an epistemological stance: it is not possible to know whether or not the supernatural exists.

When put together, these stances modify each other: the agnostic atheist is one who has no evidentiary basis (factual knowledge) for belief in the supernatural; to the best of his knowledge then, the agnostic atheist lacks belief in the supernatural because there is no supporting evidence to convince him otherwise.

Does this make sense?
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23-05-2011, 12:07 PM
 
RE: Agnostic belief
(23-05-2011 10:20 AM)Kthulu Wrote:  Atheism is a metaphysical stance: the supernatural does not exist.

Agnositicism is an epistemological stance: it is not possible to know whether or not the supernatural exists.

When put together, these stances modify each other: the agnostic atheist is one who has no evidentiary basis (factual knowledge) for belief in the supernatural; to the best of his knowledge then, the agnostic atheist lacks belief in the supernatural because there is no supporting evidence to convince him otherwise.

Does this make sense?

Yes this does make sense. I've just always believed that the two couldn't mix only because I thought being agnostic is being unsure and atheism is sure.

And as for you Ashley, I apologize if I came off on the wrong foot, but when I was confronted with my mom about being an agnostic, she thought I meant athiest and I had to clearly define the two
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