Agnostic belief
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23-07-2015, 04:12 PM
RE: Agnostic belief
(23-07-2015 02:32 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 01:24 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  . Note the word "it" in your sentence. "It" denotes something. What is the "it" that they are naming nothing. Is it an absence. This would presuppose the abscence of something.even the concept nothing presupposes the concept something. When they refer to nothing to what are they referring? There's no escape from the primary fact of existence.

Don't ask me lo! You need to go after Hawking, Krauss, and all of the other physicists, who subscribe to a universe from nothing.

None of it really makes sense to me. It doesn't make sense that something could be caused by nothing, and it also doesn't make sense that something could exist eternally with no cause at all. That's partly why I'm agnostic. I don't have it all figured out, and don't claim to. I very simply "don't know".
Also if you don't know that is the honest thing to say as you do. But most Theists will just make something up and demand that you consider it possible even though it is completely arbitrary. I was debating a theist a couple of days ago and it was clear he didn't know or understand the issues I had raised. Yet he declared my argument both invalid and and unsound even though it was a standar modus ponens.

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23-07-2015, 05:10 PM
RE: Agnostic belief
I always get confused with this one.

Alot of atheists won't commit to saying there is no God, yet they will say undoubtedly there is no other mythical being and put god on a separate pedestal.

I realise saying there is no God puts you in the making a claim camp so I get why people go for the positions they do.

Nobody else ever says "oh I can't say for certain there is no Santa Clause or Tooth Fairy" .. No, there is no fucking Santa or tooth fairy. And there is no fucking God either. What century are we in? Why are we even discussing this in this day and age? Why is it even a serious topic for debate? Its nonsese... Please don't give it any credibility by saying "Oh we can't know for certain" of course you can know for certain.

Dead bodies don't resurrect a few days later, snakes and donkeys don't talk, demons can't cause illnesses and people can't live inside fish.

Why are you even saying there is a slight possibility of it being true when you know its impossible.
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23-07-2015, 05:14 PM
RE: Agnostic belief
(23-07-2015 01:24 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 12:31 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  I'm certainly no expert lol!

But they seem very adamant about referring to it as nothing....

Why do they refer to it as nothing if it's something?
. Note the word "it" in your sentence. "It" denotes something. What is the "it" that they are naming nothing. Is it an absence. This would presuppose the abscence of something.even the concept nothing presupposes the concept something. When they refer to nothing to what are they referring? There's no escape from the primary fact of existence.

This is a fallacy. You cannot argue that 'nothing' must have no identity in order for us to acknowledge its existence, that's absurd.

Archi

"I love the term magic realism. It's about expanding how you see the world. I think we live in an age where we're just hammered to think this is what the world is. Everything's saying 'That's the world.' And it's not the world. The world is a million possible things." - TG

Salman Rushdie talks to Terry Gilliam
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23-07-2015, 07:04 PM
RE: Agnostic belief
(23-07-2015 05:14 PM)ArchibaldFunkdust Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 01:24 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  . Note the word "it" in your sentence. "It" denotes something. What is the "it" that they are naming nothing. Is it an absence. This would presuppose the abscence of something.even the concept nothing presupposes the concept something. When they refer to nothing to what are they referring? There's no escape from the primary fact of existence.

This is a fallacy. You cannot argue that 'nothing' must have no identity in order for us to acknowledge its existence, that's absurd.

Archi
What is its identity then? What does the concept nothing reference in reality? And by what means are you aware of it? are you directly aware of it or is its existence inferred? If it is inferred then what is your starting point for inference?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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23-07-2015, 07:27 PM
RE: Agnostic belief
(23-07-2015 07:04 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  What is its identity then?

The artist previously known as [Image: 100px-Empty_set.svg.png]

(23-07-2015 07:04 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  What does the concept nothing reference in reality?

Nothing.

(23-07-2015 07:04 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  And by what means are you aware of it?

We invented it.

(23-07-2015 07:04 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  are you directly aware of it or is its existence inferred?

Neither. It is presumed.

(23-07-2015 07:04 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  If it is inferred then what is your starting point for inference?

Without it and the equally ineffable concept of infinity we'd be shit out of luck. All of our mathematics would crumble.

#sigh
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23-07-2015, 11:15 PM
RE: Agnostic belief
(23-07-2015 05:10 PM)TheStraightener Wrote:  I always get confused with this one.

Alot of atheists won't commit to saying there is no God, yet they will say undoubtedly there is no other mythical being and put god on a separate pedestal.

I realise saying there is no God puts you in the making a claim camp so I get why people go for the positions they do.

Nobody else ever says "oh I can't say for certain there is no Santa Clause or Tooth Fairy" .. No, there is no fucking Santa or tooth fairy. And there is no fucking God either. What century are we in? Why are we even discussing this in this day and age? Why is it even a serious topic for debate? Its nonsese... Please don't give it any credibility by saying "Oh we can't know for certain" of course you can know for certain.

Dead bodies don't resurrect a few days later, snakes and donkeys don't talk, demons can't cause illnesses and people can't live inside fish.

Why are you even saying there is a slight possibility of it being true when you know its impossible.

I think you have misunderstood the argument of the not certain there is no god case because I've not seen a single person make any stance close to that.

It sounds like you don't get the agnostic-atheist position of not proclaiming to know there is no god. Well that "god" isn't Jehova or Jesus or Zeus/Jupiter/Thor. It's not ideas of man made concepts that are evidence based provably man made through noting their origins in formed based on previous existing ideas from early humanity. Just like Santa and Tooth-fairies those are definitively made up by man.

"dead bodies... blah blah" any of that has nothing to do with the concept of the argument. That's mischaracterizing it to have anything to do with Christianity.

You say "IT" is impossible? What is it? how do we know we have proven "IT" to be impossible? That's the point. It's because we are limited in a scope of what we know and what we can't know just yet. It's basically a stance of acknowledging purely following the evidence and taking the evidence all the way to a spot where you still can't exactly proof a non-impactful non-conscious randomly hard to say it would even be anything, deistic style deity exists. Of course it's absurd still but what is the evidence against that concept of a god? Does it change anything, no that's why 18th/19th century Deists are still basically atheists in all tempered regard. There is next to nothing different in the position but acknowledging evidence.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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24-07-2015, 05:44 PM
RE: Agnostic belief
(23-07-2015 07:04 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 05:14 PM)ArchibaldFunkdust Wrote:  This is a fallacy. You cannot argue that 'nothing' must have no identity in order for us to acknowledge its existence, that's absurd.

Archi
What is its identity then? What does the concept nothing reference in reality? And by what means are you aware of it? are you directly aware of it or is its existence inferred? If it is inferred then what is your starting point for inference?

Deleuze tells us identity a secondary principle and not a first principle and the starting point is difference in itself not difference between.

Archi

"I love the term magic realism. It's about expanding how you see the world. I think we live in an age where we're just hammered to think this is what the world is. Everything's saying 'That's the world.' And it's not the world. The world is a million possible things." - TG

Salman Rushdie talks to Terry Gilliam
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