Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
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25-02-2016, 12:03 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 09:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(25-02-2016 05:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  What's the percentage of self-identifying atheists in prison and the percentage of self identifying atheists in the general population?

About 0.1% atheist in prison population, but 9 - 10% of the general population.

Citations please, and dates of these actual surveys. If you don't already know the problem already.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

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25-02-2016, 12:29 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
I think Tomasia has a good point in challenging the data presented earlier in the thread. However, a simple, google search got me this: LINK

Far from perfect since it is just a blog post with a cut and paste from a supposed FOIA request but its a start.

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored- Aldous Huxley
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25-02-2016, 12:37 PM (This post was last modified: 25-02-2016 12:46 PM by Chas.)
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 12:03 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(25-02-2016 09:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  About 0.1% atheist in prison population, but 9 - 10% of the general population.

Citations please, and dates of these actual surveys. If you don't already know the problem already.

Have you never bothered to investigate this? Do you really have no idea that in every survey the percentage of self-identified atheists
in U.S. prisons is an order of magnitude lower than in the general population? Consider

http://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/item/...s-atheists

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyath...opulation/

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-ri...its-prison

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-...-atheists/

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-02-2016, 12:48 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 12:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(25-02-2016 12:03 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Citations please, and dates of these actual surveys. If you don't already know the problem already.

Have you never bothered to investigate this? Do you really have no idea that in every survey the percentage of self-identified atheists
in U.S. prisons is an order of magnitude lower that in the general population? Consider

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyath...opulation/

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-ri...its-prison

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-...-atheists/

How many survey of the religious of affiliations of the federal prison population do you think have been taken?

There's only one that's repeatedly being cited, from 1997!. If you wanna draw a conclusion based on it, with general population surveys twenty years after, you'd be an idiot.

If atheists where even marginally skeptical, and didn't just accept whatever nonsense claim they fancy, they would have rejected the claim of the under represented atheists prison population a long time ago.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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25-02-2016, 12:48 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 12:29 PM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  I think Tomasia has a good point in challenging the data presented earlier in the thread. However, a simple, google search got me this: LINK

Far from perfect since it is just a blog post with a cut and paste from a supposed FOIA request but its a start.

I've never trusted the claims that atheists are very under-represented in prisons. Every time I've looked for the statistics there always seems to be 10-20% that were not counted in the survey or declined to state and I suspect that many of them are closeted atheists. I also would not be surprised to find that some atheists claim to be religious in order to avoid problems or to gain better treatment.

On the other hand, I do think that what these numbers generally confirm is that theists aren't underrepresented in prisons. Any claim that you need a god to be good or that believing makes you better is just not supported by the data. Instead, the data seems to show that belief has little or no effect on the chances of being incarcerated.

There would need to be a follow-up study of people who claimed to be religious in prison to see if they admitted to atheism after release to figure out if theists are the ones who are actually underrepresented and huge numbers of atheists in prisons are falsely claiming to believe. I don't know of any study like that.

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25-02-2016, 12:50 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 12:48 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(25-02-2016 12:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  Have you never bothered to investigate this? Do you really have no idea that in every survey the percentage of self-identified atheists
in U.S. prisons is an order of magnitude lower that in the general population? Consider

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyath...opulation/

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-ri...its-prison

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-...-atheists/

How many survey of the religious of affiliations of the federal prison population do you think have been taken?

There's only one that's repeatedly being cited, from 1997!. If you wanna draw a conclusion based on it, with general population surveys twenty years after, you'd be an idiot.

If atheists where even marginally skeptical, and didn't just accept whatever nonsense claim they fancy, they would have rejected the claim of the under represented atheists prison population a long time ago.

Do you have data you would like to provide?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-02-2016, 12:54 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 12:48 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(25-02-2016 12:29 PM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  I think Tomasia has a good point in challenging the data presented earlier in the thread. However, a simple, google search got me this: LINK

Far from perfect since it is just a blog post with a cut and paste from a supposed FOIA request but its a start.

I've never trusted the claims that atheists are very under-represented in prisons. Every time I've looked for the statistics there always seems to be 10-20% that were not counted in the survey or declined to state and I suspect that many of them are closeted atheists. I also would not be surprised to find that some atheists claim to be religious in order to avoid problems or to gain better treatment.

On the other hand, I do think that what these numbers generally confirm is that theists aren't underrepresented in prisons. Any claim that you need a god to be good or that believing makes you better is just not supported by the data. Instead, the data seems to show that belief has little or no effect on the chances of being incarcerated.

There would need to be a follow-up study of people who claimed to be religious in prison to see if they admitted to atheism after release to figure out if theists are the ones who are actually underrepresented and huge numbers of atheists in prisons are falsely claiming to believe. I don't know of any study like that.

That seems reasonable.

What is clearly not supported by any data is that religion makes people more law-abiding.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-02-2016, 01:02 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 12:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  Do you have data you would like to provide?

As to the year of the prison survey the links you posted commonly cite? Did you not look into that part, that you don't know what year it was taken?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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25-02-2016, 01:09 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 12:48 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(25-02-2016 12:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  Have you never bothered to investigate this? Do you really have no idea that in every survey the percentage of self-identified atheists
in U.S. prisons is an order of magnitude lower that in the general population? Consider

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyath...opulation/

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-ri...its-prison

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-...-atheists/

How many survey of the religious of affiliations of the federal prison population do you think have been taken?

There's only one that's repeatedly being cited, from 1997!. If you wanna draw a conclusion based on it, with general population surveys twenty years after, you'd be an idiot.

If atheists where even marginally skeptical, and didn't just accept whatever nonsense claim they fancy, they would have rejected the claim of the under represented atheists prison population a long time ago.

Literally the first link provides full data from 2015. How you read that as 1997 I couldn't begin to speculate.

Are you even trying?

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25-02-2016, 01:16 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 11:57 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(25-02-2016 09:32 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  It's religion which supposedly makes people more moral.

But if you want the data: atheists make 0.1% of federal prison population. Percentage of people who claim to be atheists in USA is 3.1% of population (may not be accurate, number is from 2014).

It's not probably not accurate, it's not accurate at all, because the prison survey is from 1997, while the general population figure you cite is almost 20 years later. Drawing the conclusion based on two separate surveys separated 20 years apart, is not a very good idea. But it hasn't stopped some rabid atheists from continuing to lay claim that they're underrepresented in prison, even when called out on it. Call it lying for atheism.

I will call your post lying for theism as your accusation is false. Survey from 1997 that you speak of says about 0.2% of atheists in prison. But here's the thing - I used newer one. Before you start yapping check the facts.

0.07% is figure from 2013, and 0.1 is from 2015 it seems.

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