Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
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25-02-2016, 01:38 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 01:09 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Literally the first link provides full data from 2015. How you read that as 1997 I couldn't begin to speculate.

Are you even trying?

Yea you might think that judging by how the graph is labeled, and if the writers of the article is suggesting the number are derived from 2015 prison religious identify survey, they'd be blatantly lying. They label seems to be derived from the time in which the data was received, but not when it was taken.

While the department of justice tracks a variety of characterizes, like race, and gender, they don't track religious affiliations. Hence why when the Pew attempted to form a view of religion affiliations of prisons, they had to resort to self reporting estimates of prison chaplains. I'm sure that would have been eager for the results of supposed survey takin in 2015.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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25-02-2016, 01:48 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 01:16 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(25-02-2016 11:57 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's not probably not accurate, it's not accurate at all, because the prison survey is from 1997, while the general population figure you cite is almost 20 years later. Drawing the conclusion based on two separate surveys separated 20 years apart, is not a very good idea. But it hasn't stopped some rabid atheists from continuing to lay claim that they're underrepresented in prison, even when called out on it. Call it lying for atheism.

I will call your post lying for theism as your accusation is false. Survey from 1997 that you speak of says about 0.2% of atheists in prison. But here's the thing - I used newer one. Before you start yapping check the facts.

0.07% is figure from 2013, and 0.1 is from 2015 it seems.

The article you post is misleading, I can see why you believe they're derived from a 2015 survey, by the way the article presents the numbers.

You can look all you want but you'll find little to any evidence of a prison survey conducted in 2015 regarding the religious identity of prisoners, no information as to who conducted it, etc... The Department of Justice doesn't track religious identification. If they were providing any numbers, they're likely only providing the data from 97 FBP survey. And the writer of the article, either blindly, or intentionally assumed the numbers are from a 2015 survey.

I'm being generous here by not accusing the writer of the article for lying for trying to claim there was 2015 survey.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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25-02-2016, 01:58 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 01:38 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(25-02-2016 01:09 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Literally the first link provides full data from 2015. How you read that as 1997 I couldn't begin to speculate.

Are you even trying?

Yea you might think that judging by how the graph is labeled, and if the writers of the article is suggesting the number are derived from 2015 prison religious identify survey, they'd be blatantly lying. They label seems to be derived from the time in which the data was received, but not when it was taken.

While the department of justice tracks a variety of characterizes, like race, and gender, they don't track religious affiliations. Hence why when the Pew attempted to form a view of religion affiliations of prisons, they had to resort to self reporting estimates of prison chaplains. I'm sure that would have been eager for the results of supposed survey takin in 2015.

Except the figures contained in the 2015 dataset are clearly different from those provided by the 2013 FOI request. Therefore - and I hope you can keep up with me here - at least some of the data must have changed in the intervening time. Therefore the Bureau of Prisons must, in fact, regularly obtain such data.

Alternatively, you could have just looked up the regulations by which inmates in religious groups are granted additional privileges within federal prisons, and seen that each inmate's stated religious affiliation is therefore kept on file.
(amply covered in the details of the lawsuit here, or you could just check with the damn Bureau of Prisons themselves, e.g. here)

Exactly what asinine non-point are you trying to argue, here?

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25-02-2016, 02:07 PM (This post was last modified: 25-02-2016 02:10 PM by Szuchow.)
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 01:48 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  The article you post is misleading, I can see why you believe they're derived from a 2015 survey, by the way the article presents the numbers.

If someone want to see what isn't there then perhaps it can be. Also there are 2 different articles.

(25-02-2016 01:48 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You can look all you want but you'll find little to any evidence of a prison survey conducted in 2015 regarding the religious identity of prisoners, no information as to who conducted it, etc... The Department of Justice doesn't track religious identification. If they were providing any numbers, they're likely only providing the data from 97 FBP survey. And the writer of the article, either blindly, or intentionally assumed the numbers are from a 2015 survey.

Why should I look when it is you who have issues with these articles? First you lie about numbers being from 1997 and now you're accusing the author of article of dishonesty/stupidity without shred of support for your position.

You have better data then show it.

(25-02-2016 01:48 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'm being generous here by not accusing the writer of the article for lying for trying to claim there was 2015 survey.

I won't be so generous. You don't like the numbers so first you lie about survey being from 1997 and now you try to say that there could not be a survey in 2015.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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25-02-2016, 02:18 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 02:07 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(25-02-2016 01:48 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  The article you post is misleading, I can see why you believe they're derived from a 2015 survey, by the way the article presents the numbers.

If someone want to see what isn't there then perhaps it can be. Also there are 2 different articles.

(25-02-2016 01:48 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You can look all you want but you'll find little to any evidence of a prison survey conducted in 2015 regarding the religious identity of prisoners, no information as to who conducted it, etc... The Department of Justice doesn't track religious identification. If they were providing any numbers, they're likely only providing the data from 97 FBP survey. And the writer of the article, either blindly, or intentionally assumed the numbers are from a 2015 survey.

Why should I look when it is you who have issues with these articles? First you lie about numbers being from 1997 and now you're accusing the author of article of lying without shred of support for your position.

You have better data then show it.

(25-02-2016 01:48 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'm being generous here by not accusing the writer of the article for lying for trying to claim there was 2015 survey.

I won't be so generous. You don't like the numbers so first you lie about survey being from 1997 and now you try to say that there could not be a survey in 2015.

There's only one survey that can be cited that's the 1997. I never heard of a supposed 2015 survey until today, and the details regarding this supposed survey are scant, to non-existent.

When the Pew conducted it's own survey relying on self-reported chaplain data, they noted that DOJ does not track religious identification, and that such information was not available, hence why they had to resort to less than accurate methodology. If that info was readily available, as seems to be implied here, this wouldn't have been the case.

Any self-respecting skeptic, or rationalist, that depends on sound data, and evidence to draw such conclusions, should be weary of some supposed 2015 data, that's not properly cited.

Are we to believe the Pew survey information is wrong, and that DOJ does keep a running track of the religious identities of it's inmates?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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25-02-2016, 02:20 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 02:18 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(25-02-2016 02:07 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  If someone want to see what isn't there then perhaps it can be. Also there are 2 different articles.


Why should I look when it is you who have issues with these articles? First you lie about numbers being from 1997 and now you're accusing the author of article of lying without shred of support for your position.

You have better data then show it.


I won't be so generous. You don't like the numbers so first you lie about survey being from 1997 and now you try to say that there could not be a survey in 2015.

There's only one survey that can be cited that's the 1997. I never heard of a supposed 2015 survey until today, and the details regarding this supposed survey are scant, to non-existent.

And, of course, what you haven't heard of must not exist.

(25-02-2016 02:18 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  When the Pew conducted it's own survey relying on self-reported chaplain data, they noted that DOJ does not track religious identification, and that such information was not available, hence why they had to resort to less than accurate methodology. If that info was readily available, as seems to be implied here, this wouldn't have been the case.

Any self-respecting skeptic, or rationalist, that depends on sound data, and evidence to draw such conclusions, should be weary of some supposed 2015 data, that's not properly cited.

Are we to believe the Pew survey information is wrong, and that DOJ does keep a running track of the religious identities of it's inmates?

The DoJ does not have such data for the entire US prison population, because it cannot do so across all jurisdictions necessary. The Bureau of Prisons does literally exactly that, because they have sole responsibility for federal inmates:
(25-02-2016 01:58 PM)cjlr Wrote:  (amply covered in the details of the lawsuit here, or you could just check with the damn Bureau of Prisons themselves, e.g. here)

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25-02-2016, 02:24 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 02:18 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(25-02-2016 02:07 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  If someone want to see what isn't there then perhaps it can be. Also there are 2 different articles.


Why should I look when it is you who have issues with these articles? First you lie about numbers being from 1997 and now you're accusing the author of article of lying without shred of support for your position.

You have better data then show it.


I won't be so generous. You don't like the numbers so first you lie about survey being from 1997 and now you try to say that there could not be a survey in 2015.

There's only one survey that can be cited that's the 1997. I never heard of a supposed 2015 survey until today, and the details regarding this supposed survey are scant, to non-existent.

When the Pew conducted it's own survey relying on self-reported chaplain data, they noted that DOJ does not track religious identification, and that such information was not available, hence why they had to resort to less than accurate methodology. If that info was readily available, as seems to be implied here, this wouldn't have been the case.

Any self-respecting skeptic, or rationalist, that depends on sound data, and evidence to draw such conclusions, should be weary of some supposed 2015 data, that's not properly cited.

Are we to believe the Pew survey information is wrong, and that DOJ does keep a running track of the religious identities of it's inmates?

I'm not getting why you think anyone, skeptic "rationalist" or anyone at all should care to about this data at any point at all. It's a very minor quibble especially not knowing the crimes at hand too, because it could be double-homicide or having 5 joints that caused the religious, x religious, or non-religious person to be "in prison"

Anyway, on the topic it's just a matter of easily notable corruption that will go with ease as long as you have open flexibility where you THINK you aren't being tracked with how you use that money. I guess it goes a bit easily besides having several outlets that work that way that churches get in regards to money investigating.. unless they're a better run congressional style church.

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25-02-2016, 02:26 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 02:18 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  There's only one survey that can be cited that's the 1997.

Well, if you say so then it must be true.

(25-02-2016 02:18 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I never heard of a supposed 2015 survey until today, and the details regarding this supposed survey are scant, to non-existent.

Fact that you doesn't heard about something does not mean it didn't happened.

(25-02-2016 02:18 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  When the Pew conducted it's own survey relying on self-reported chaplain data, they noted that DOJ does not track religious identification, and that such information was not available, hence why they had to resort to less than accurate methodology. If that info was readily available, as seems to be implied here, this wouldn't have been the case.

Cjlr already dealt with it.

(25-02-2016 02:18 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Any self-respecting skeptic, or rationalist, that depends on sound data, and evidence to draw such conclusions, should be weary of some supposed 2015 data, that's not properly cited.

I tend to be wary of people accusing other of lies for what seems to be ideological reasons.

(25-02-2016 02:18 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Are we to believe the Pew survey information is wrong, and that DOJ does keep a running track of the religious identities of it's inmates?

Believe what you wish, I care not. You asked for data and when I provided it you apparently found it not to your liking. Tough shit, but reality does not conform to wishes of believers.

Don't expect further answers from me, I don't fancy playing chess with pigeon.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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25-02-2016, 02:43 PM (This post was last modified: 25-02-2016 02:51 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 01:02 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(25-02-2016 12:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  Do you have data you would like to provide?

As to the year of the prison survey the links you posted commonly cite? Did you not look into that part, that you don't know what year it was taken?

2013 in the 538 study thanks to the Friendly Atheist who filed a Freedom of Information Act request to the Federal Bureau of Prisons. Did you not read it?

#sigh
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25-02-2016, 03:08 PM (This post was last modified: 25-02-2016 03:11 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 01:58 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(25-02-2016 01:38 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Yea you might think that judging by how the graph is labeled, and if the writers of the article is suggesting the number are derived from 2015 prison religious identify survey, they'd be blatantly lying. They label seems to be derived from the time in which the data was received, but not when it was taken.

While the department of justice tracks a variety of characterizes, like race, and gender, they don't track religious affiliations. Hence why when the Pew attempted to form a view of religion affiliations of prisons, they had to resort to self reporting estimates of prison chaplains. I'm sure that would have been eager for the results of supposed survey takin in 2015.

Except the figures contained in the 2015 dataset are clearly different from those provided by the 2013 FOI request. Therefore - and I hope you can keep up with me here - at least some of the data must have changed in the intervening time. Therefore the Bureau of Prisons must, in fact, regularly obtain such data.

Alternatively, you could have just looked up the regulations by which inmates in religious groups are granted additional privileges within federal prisons, and seen that each inmate's stated religious affiliation is therefore kept on file.
(amply covered in the details of the lawsuit here, or you could just check with the damn Bureau of Prisons themselves, e.g. here)

Exactly what asinine non-point are you trying to argue, here?

Noted.

I wasn't aware of any updated information acquired in 2015, which others here have cited. So it's possibly that information provided to Mehta was derived from "religious preferences" information entered into the Sentry. Though Mehta, nor the information he provided states this at all, that the numbers were derived by Sentry information. His information isn't properly cited, and we'd just be speculating here that it's derived by up to date Sentry entries.

And as to why Sentry religious presence data wasn't used by the Pew, is unknown, perhaps they were ignorant in regards to the availability of this data, or possibly judged it as less reliable than a chaplain survey.

And if others want to rest their faith on poorly cited data acquired by an atheists blogger, to lay claim to atheists are less represented in prison than that's up to them. It doesn't speak highly of their skepticism though. Prior to Mehta 2015 acquisition , this claim was made using a 1997 survey all most exclusively.

But I'll keep the update in mind.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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