Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
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25-02-2016, 03:35 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
My skepticism begins with anybody in prison claiming faith. It's an old con used to try and fool parole boards into thinking that you're a good little reformed inmate.

The only meaningful data would be religious beliefs at the time the crime was comitted. Beliefs of repeat offenders might be interesting too.

You're going to get a skew though because the US has (1) a ridiculous proportion of believers and (2) a ridiculous proportion of prison inmates.

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25-02-2016, 04:16 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 12:11 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  Federal officials indict leadership of FLDS church for food stamp fraud.

Among the other things they allegedly purchased with the SNAP funds that they ordered their poor members to hand over rather than use to feed their own families? A truck.

.... someone remind me how being Christian makes you a more moral person, again? I never was clear on how that worked.

The thing is, this is moral according to the Christian ethic. Not the lying part but the accepting of other people's money for their benefit. They preach selfless sacrifice and people forget that for every sacrificer, there must be someone to collect the sacrifice. They are simply collecting what was taken from others and using it for their benefit. I'm sure they would say it is not for them but for the work of God. That's how they would rationalize it. But this is in accordance with the basic moral principle they preach.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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25-02-2016, 04:24 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 03:35 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  It's an old con used to try and fool parole boards into thinking that you're a good little reformed inmate.

What they don't realize is that parole boards are stacked with atheists.

#sigh
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25-02-2016, 04:31 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 03:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(25-02-2016 01:58 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Except the figures contained in the 2015 dataset are clearly different from those provided by the 2013 FOI request. Therefore - and I hope you can keep up with me here - at least some of the data must have changed in the intervening time. Therefore the Bureau of Prisons must, in fact, regularly obtain such data.

Alternatively, you could have just looked up the regulations by which inmates in religious groups are granted additional privileges within federal prisons, and seen that each inmate's stated religious affiliation is therefore kept on file.
(amply covered in the details of the lawsuit here, or you could just check with the damn Bureau of Prisons themselves, e.g. here)

Exactly what asinine non-point are you trying to argue, here?

Noted.

I wasn't aware of any updated information acquired in 2015, which others here have cited. So it's possibly that information provided to Mehta was derived from "religious preferences" information entered into the Sentry. Though Mehta, nor the information he provided states this at all, that the numbers were derived by Sentry information. His information isn't properly cited, and we'd just be speculating here that it's derived by up to date Sentry entries.

Well, then. Let's just review what we've established:
A) the Bureau of Prisons maintains a database of federal inmate religious identification
B) Mehta presented a dataset as being directly provided by the Bureau of Prisons and containing data on federal inmate religious identity

I see three obvious possibilities for the provenance of that data:
1) the Bureau of Prisons anonymised their data (data they already keep, we've established) and sent it to Mehta pursuant to the FOI request he submitted to them
2) the Bureau of Prisons sent Mehta fabricated data
3) Mehta fabricated the data, and indeed the whole exchange

What's more likely, do you suppose?

(25-02-2016 03:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  And as to why Sentry religious presence data wasn't used by the Pew, is unknown, perhaps they were ignorant in regards to the availability of this data, or possibly judged it as less reliable than a chaplain survey.

About five seconds research would answer that question - notwithstanding that I already did it for you:
PEW surveyed chaplains at state prisons.
BoP maintains a database for federal inmates.

So, you know. Different datasets. Which makes your hilariously dishonest insinuation of "ignorance" on their part rather questionable. But why let facts stop you now?

(25-02-2016 03:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  And if others want to rest their faith on poorly cited data acquired by an atheists blogger, to lay claim to atheists are less represented in prison than that's up to them. It doesn't speak highly of their skepticism though. Prior to Mehta 2015 acquisition , this claim was made using a 1997 survey all most exclusively.

Prior to 2015, Mehta asked for and received the same equivalent dataset in 2013. So, there's that.

In what universe does explicitly identifying the source count as poorly cited? Christ, you're bad at this.

Although I suppose now would be a good time to ask you to substantiate your now repeated claim that there are "many" sources working solely from the 1997 figure. You're the one who's apparently so sure they exist, after all.

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25-02-2016, 04:41 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 03:35 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  My skepticism begins with anybody in prison claiming faith. It's an old con used to try and fool parole boards into thinking that you're a good little reformed inmate.

Where "old con" reads "might have worked in the 1930s"...

I'd be mighty skeptical that such a facile ploy would get one anywhere in the modern era.

More relevantly, perhaps, inmates are granted additional privileges as a consequence of religions identity - e.g. association, observances, etc. To say nothing of how membership of any kind confers in-group status...

(25-02-2016 03:35 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  The only meaningful data would be religious beliefs at the time the crime was comitted. Beliefs of repeat offenders might be interesting too.

You're going to get a skew though because the US has (1) a ridiculous proportion of believers and (2) a ridiculous proportion of prison inmates.

If all else were equal the demographic breakdown within prison populations would be exactly commensurate with the general population; we know however that all else is very much not equal.

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25-02-2016, 04:43 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 04:31 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(25-02-2016 03:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  And if others want to rest their faith on poorly cited data acquired by an atheists blogger, to lay claim to atheists are less represented in prison than that's up to them. It doesn't speak highly of their skepticism though. Prior to Mehta 2015 acquisition , this claim was made using a 1997 survey all most exclusively.

Prior to 2015, Mehta asked for and received the same equivalent dataset in 2013. So, there's that.

In what universe does explicitly identifying the source count as poorly cited? Christ, you're bad at this.

I don't think he reads everything before he feels compelled to prematurely respond. Much like Q and Wail_of_the_Child. That is an excellent way to quickly lose all credibility.

#sigh
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25-02-2016, 06:12 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 04:41 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(25-02-2016 03:35 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  My skepticism begins with anybody in prison claiming faith. It's an old con used to try and fool parole boards into thinking that you're a good little reformed inmate.

Where "old con" reads "might have worked in the 1930s"...

I'd be mighty skeptical that such a facile ploy would get one anywhere in the modern era.

Seriously? You don't recall Dubya's faith-based prison break initiatives? The ones that were dismal failures?

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25-02-2016, 06:43 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 10:02 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  Dang, I read "uptight" instead of upright and thought we'd have a kinky thread for a change. Sad

Don't tempt them or they'll bust out the magic underwear.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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25-02-2016, 06:57 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
Holy shit, Tom. You cry about not having citations then when you get them, you can't read them properly THEN cry foul, THEN whine about the data which even IF it were slightly flawed, even IF it were truly 3-5% which is over two orders of magnitude higher then what the figures say, that would STILL only mean that atheists are jailed as often as christians which STILL is completely irrelevant in terms of our morality. You still have no legs to stand on. You have a lot of gall saying that we accept everything and when it is demostrated that we don't, you just talk out of your ass.

So I have 2 questions for you:
1) At what point would you concede your argument?
2) How high a percentage would it take for you to have a point? I am asking for YOU to consider the data relevant.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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25-02-2016, 07:00 PM
RE: Ah, those upright Christian citizens....
(25-02-2016 04:43 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I don't think he reads everything before he feels compelled to prematurely respond. Much like Q and Wail_of_the_Child. That is an excellent way to quickly lose all credibility.

Tomasia has demonstrated previously that he doesn't actually have an argument, or any sort of coherent point, when he goes into threads like this. He just... says things, without bothering to think them through first or check that anything he says is even vaguely correct, and sees what happens. Apparently, this is because he is testing various ideas of his about how atheists think, or something to that effect.

He presumably thinks that this is more efficient than simply asking questions and receiving answers.

It's why I really don't bother with him any more. At least Q takes an actual position. It's an incoherent and stupid one, yes, but at least it's there.

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