Aliens !, what would embarrass you the most
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10-11-2013, 04:23 AM
RE: Aliens !, what would embarrass you the most
(10-11-2013 03:58 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(09-11-2013 03:21 AM)sporehux Wrote:  Aliens !, what would embarrass you the most about humanity if some friendlies ever visited.

Abortion

People thinking they can bully women into
Decisions that are none of their business.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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10-11-2013, 05:06 AM
RE: Aliens !, what would embarrass you the most
(10-11-2013 04:23 AM)sporehux Wrote:  
(10-11-2013 03:58 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Abortion

People thinking they can bully women into
Decisions that are none of their business.

This isn't a political discussion so try not to derail it. I will try to flesh out my point a little bit.

When I was a very young child we had an aquarium that contained guppies. One guppie gave birth to a bunch of fry which were quickly consumed by her and the other guppies in the aquarium. As a small child this caused an intense feeling of disgust for guppies...why would they choose to kill and consume their own young? There is something wrong about that.

Well I know now that guppies simply don't know better. They are stupid creatures. Humans, on the other hand know they are killing their own offspring via abortion....There is something disgusting about that.

Now if we meet an alien species it is safe to assume that alien species will have offspring. Further it is safe to assume that alien species....like humans...will value their offspring to some degree. They may value their offspring more than humans or they may value their offspring less than humans. It would be silly to think they would value their offspring exactly the same as humans. If those aliens value their offspring more than humans, its quite conceivable they will be disgusted by the practice of abortion just as I am.

That is embarrassment.
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10-11-2013, 05:21 AM
RE: Aliens !, what would embarrass you the most
(10-11-2013 05:06 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(10-11-2013 04:23 AM)sporehux Wrote:  People thinking they can bully women into
Decisions that are none of their business.

This isn't a political discussion so try not to derail it. I will try to flesh out my point a little bit.

When I was a very young child we had an aquarium that contained guppies. One guppie gave birth to a bunch of fry which were quickly consumed by her and the other guppies in the aquarium. As a small child this caused an intense feeling of disgust for guppies...why would they choose to kill and consume their own young? There is something wrong about that.

Well I know now that guppies simply don't know better. They are stupid creatures. Humans, on the other hand know they are killing their own offspring via abortion....There is something disgusting about that.

Now if we meet an alien species it is safe to assume that alien species will have offspring. Further it is safe to assume that alien species....like humans...will value their offspring to some degree. They may value their offspring more than humans or they may value their offspring less than humans. It would be silly to think they would value their offspring exactly the same as humans. If those aliens value their offspring more than humans, its quite conceivable they will be disgusted by the practice of abortion just as I am.

That is embarrassment.
You'd have to be some religious nut job.
To think an abortion is baby killing.
Although Fundie puppets will blindly parrot this line.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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10-11-2013, 05:26 AM
RE: Aliens !, what would embarrass you the most
(10-11-2013 05:21 AM)sporehux Wrote:  
(10-11-2013 05:06 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  This isn't a political discussion so try not to derail it. I will try to flesh out my point a little bit.

When I was a very young child we had an aquarium that contained guppies. One guppie gave birth to a bunch of fry which were quickly consumed by her and the other guppies in the aquarium. As a small child this caused an intense feeling of disgust for guppies...why would they choose to kill and consume their own young? There is something wrong about that.

Well I know now that guppies simply don't know better. They are stupid creatures. Humans, on the other hand know they are killing their own offspring via abortion....There is something disgusting about that.

Now if we meet an alien species it is safe to assume that alien species will have offspring. Further it is safe to assume that alien species....like humans...will value their offspring to some degree. They may value their offspring more than humans or they may value their offspring less than humans. It would be silly to think they would value their offspring exactly the same as humans. If those aliens value their offspring more than humans, its quite conceivable they will be disgusted by the practice of abortion just as I am.

That is embarrassment.
You'd have to be some religious nut job.
To think an abortion is baby killing.
Although Fundie puppets will blindly parrot this line.

I never said it was "baby killing"....you said that.....maybe deep down inside that's how you view it.

I said it was the killing of offspring....and that is exactly what it is.
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10-11-2013, 06:19 AM
RE: Aliens !, what would embarrass you the most
(10-11-2013 05:26 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(10-11-2013 05:21 AM)sporehux Wrote:  You'd have to be some religious nut job.
To think an abortion is baby killing.
Although Fundie puppets will blindly parrot this line.

I never said it was "baby killing"....you said that.....maybe deep down inside that's how you view it.

I said it was the killing of offspring....and that is exactly what it is.

No, foetuses aren't offspring. Babies are offspring.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-11-2013, 06:35 AM (This post was last modified: 10-11-2013 09:40 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Aliens !, what would embarrass you the most
Almost all abortions are done very early in the pregnancy. Way more than 50% of pregnancies spontaneous abort. Very "intelligent design" that.
Very very few are done in even the second trimester.
The idea that a clump of cells, with no neural tube, (a *potential* human) cannot be distinguished from an actualized human, is itself embarrassing, and reflective of the complete lack of science education by vast numbers of humans, as is the fact that humans engage in sex with no protective devices/measures. What is even MORE embarrassing is a moral system which pretends to be moral, while being internally self-contradictory, ("natural family planning").
Very embarrassing to humanity in front of aliens would be the mindless indiscriminate unintelligent over-reproduction of a supposedly "intelligent" species to a point the resources of the entire planet could / would / will be compromised, and intelligent controls opposed by cult members who do so on the basis of woo-woo magic / witch-doctor "immortal souls", ... a concept cooked up thousands of years before, and for which there is not a shred of evidence.

Also would turn red if the aliens asked about ;
.. what's up with Muslim honor killings, and beheading, and stoning
.. what's up with constant "thank-you's" to a deity which (supposedly) just caused/allowed havoc with weather events, or horrible disasters, by a few "spared"
.. references to invisible mythical beings actually referenced in 2013, by presidents, and politicians : "God bless America", *as if* the deity was too stupid to know what it wanted, or intended to do, as well as ubiquitous references to the same imaginary ancient cult (war god) deity on currencies, buildings, courts, songs, and laws
.. the fact that millions of humans still read and go to "study" an ancient set of texts, capriciously cobbled together with no actual internal criteria, declare them "inspired", and ascribe to them, with not a shred of historical knowledge about the cultures which produced them, *ultimate* meanings.
.. the fact that the head and leaders of the cult headquartered in Rome wear the fish hat/helmet of the ancient fish-god Dagon, and declare themselves supreme authorities, even though the (infalible, duly called .. even though by the emperor ??) Council of Chalcedon, in it's 28th canon, decreed the See of Constantinople EQUAL to the See of Rome.

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10-11-2013, 09:21 AM
RE: Aliens !, what would embarrass you the most
(10-11-2013 05:21 AM)sporehux Wrote:  You'd have to be some religious nut job.
To think an abortion is baby killing.
Although Fundie puppets will blindly parrot this line.

Late term abortion--which admittedly is not typical--is "baby killing". Nothing magical happens when the foetus is delivered such that it is instantaenously transformed into a person. At around the 25th week the foetus' nervous system is functioning, the foetus is sentient.
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10-11-2013, 09:28 AM
RE: Aliens !, what would embarrass you the most
(10-11-2013 09:21 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(10-11-2013 05:21 AM)sporehux Wrote:  You'd have to be some religious nut job.
To think an abortion is baby killing.
Although Fundie puppets will blindly parrot this line.

Late term abortion--which admittedly is not typical--is "baby killing". Nothing magical happens when the foetus is delivered such that it is instantaenously transformed into a person. At around the 25th week the foetus' nervous system is functioning, the foetus is sentient.

Agreed, Chippy. Past 25 weeks it's a slippery slope. Cases that occur now are usually a choice between killing the mother or killing the child. Very disturbing situation.

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10-11-2013, 09:32 AM
RE: Aliens !, what would embarrass you the most
I think aliens would get off the ship, assess the situation, shrug their shoulders and leave.

Unless of course they happen to be even less evolved than us and just stumbled across space travel...

I would be most embarrassed that religion still dominates people here. The amount of time, energy and money poured into perpetuating it is horrendous.

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10-11-2013, 09:44 AM
RE: Aliens !, what would embarrass you the most
(10-11-2013 05:06 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Now if we meet an alien species it is safe to assume that alien species will have offspring. Further it is safe to assume that alien species....like humans...will value their offspring to some degree. They may value their offspring more than humans or they may value their offspring less than humans. It would be silly to think they would value their offspring exactly the same as humans. If those aliens value their offspring more than humans, its quite conceivable they will be disgusted by the practice of abortion just as I am.

That is embarrassment.

My view is that abortion is a problem only if it is late-term, i.e. >25th week. I think a functioning CNS is constitutive of personhood so when the foetus has achieved that it shouldn't be treated as foreign tissue that can be discarded. I concede that precisely determining that the CNS of the foetus has reached a level of maturity is not currently possible and there would be some degree of guesswork.

If we have only a collection of undifferentiated cells or a barely formed foetus I can't see how that could be deemed a person in any sense of the word and consequently I would have no objection to abortion in these cases.

I think my position strikes the mean between the two extremes: personhood commences at conception vs. personhood commences at birth. I think both the the extremes are untenable because they have no non-arbitrary criterion for attributing personhood.

I don't see any difference between late-term abortion and infanticide such as this. Why should Hein be charged with infanticide if a woman can do whatever she likes with her body?
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