Aliens !, what would embarrass you the most
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10-11-2013, 10:00 AM
RE: Aliens !, what would embarrass you the most
(10-11-2013 09:44 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(10-11-2013 05:06 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Now if we meet an alien species it is safe to assume that alien species will have offspring. Further it is safe to assume that alien species....like humans...will value their offspring to some degree. They may value their offspring more than humans or they may value their offspring less than humans. It would be silly to think they would value their offspring exactly the same as humans. If those aliens value their offspring more than humans, its quite conceivable they will be disgusted by the practice of abortion just as I am.

That is embarrassment.

My view is that abortion is a problem only if it is late-term, i.e. >25th week. I think a functioning CNS is constitutive of personhood so when the foetus has achieved that it shouldn't be treated as foreign tissue that can be discarded. I concede that precisely determining that the CNS of the foetus has reached a level of maturity is not currently possible and there would be some degree of guesswork.

If we have only a collection of undifferentiated cells or a barely formed foetus I can't see how that could be deemed a person in any sense of the word and consequently I would have no objection to abortion in these cases.

I think my position strikes the mean between the two extremes: personhood commences at conception vs. personhood commences at birth. I think both the the extremes are untenable because they have no non-arbitrary criterion for attributing personhood.

I don't see any difference between late-term abortion and infanticide such as this. Why should Hein be charged with infanticide if a woman can do whatever she likes with her body?

Late term abortions are not done willy nilly.

They are usually done only if the life of the mother is at stake.

Then one has to choose to either kill the mother or kill the baby, or the mother has to choose to die for her baby or not.

Another measuring stick would be survivability.

Can the baby be removed early enough to save the mother's life, but developed enough to allow artificial incubation?

And really, we should know more about properly incubating babies at an early age. We can for instance raise baby parrots from the moment fertilized egg is laid, through hatching and then through a period where the baby bird is not at all viable without perfectly controlled environment and feeding. We can manage that. One would think we would put some resources into making this possible for humans.

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10-11-2013, 10:21 AM (This post was last modified: 10-11-2013 10:30 AM by kim.)
RE: Aliens !, what would embarrass you the most
(10-11-2013 05:06 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  This isn't a political discussion so try not to derail it.
Ok, lots learned there. Dodgy

Alien embarrassment: Grown men retaining feelings of disgust acquired as a small child while watching guppies, then conflating it with unrelated human circumstance.

*** Moving on to the original post ***

I suppose I would be embarrassed by the human species' scientific and technological holding pattern it's placed itself in. Blush

It's not like we don't know our planet will probably stop supporting life and yet we've made little or no attempt to address and support this as a global effort.

I can see aliens saying to us, "What the fuck have you been doing all this time? You aren't supposed to make your toys just so you can sit on your ass and play with them. Put down the fucking Xbox, clean this place up, and get the fuck out!".

They'd probably figure out our propensity for slack as soon as someone offers them some weed. But I'm not too embarrassed about the slack really; just the complete resignation to the lack of ambition. Shy

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10-11-2013, 11:47 AM
RE: Aliens !, what would embarrass you the most
(10-11-2013 06:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-11-2013 05:26 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I never said it was "baby killing"....you said that.....maybe deep down inside that's how you view it.

I said it was the killing of offspring....and that is exactly what it is.

No, foetuses aren't offspring. Babies are offspring.

You're wrong Chas,

http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Offspring

Any new organism produce by a living organism is an offspring. You were an offspring the moment you were an organism....which is basically conception.
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10-11-2013, 11:51 AM
RE: Aliens !, what would embarrass you the most
(10-11-2013 11:47 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(10-11-2013 06:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, foetuses aren't offspring. Babies are offspring.

You're wrong Chas,

http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Offspring

Any new organism produce by a living organism is an offspring. You were an offspring the moment you were an organism....which is basically conception.

Only if a tumor is also an organism. Is it?

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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10-11-2013, 11:55 AM
RE: Aliens !, what would embarrass you the most
(10-11-2013 09:44 AM)Chippy Wrote:  My view is that abortion is a problem only if it is late-term, i.e. >25th week. I think a functioning CNS is constitutive of personhood so when the foetus has achieved that it shouldn't be treated as foreign tissue that can be discarded. I concede that precisely determining that the CNS of the foetus has reached a level of maturity is not currently possible and there would be some degree of guesswork.

If we have only a collection of undifferentiated cells or a barely formed foetus I can't see how that could be deemed a person in any sense of the word and consequently I would have no objection to abortion in these cases.

I think my position strikes the mean between the two extremes: personhood commences at conception vs. personhood commences at birth. I think both the the extremes are untenable because they have no non-arbitrary criterion for attributing personhood.

I don't see any difference between late-term abortion and infanticide such as this. Why should Hein be charged with infanticide if a woman can do whatever she likes with her body?

I'm not interested in debating when abortion is okay or not okay.....that's really the subject of another thread. The OP asked what would embarrass me the most if aliens visited. The answer is that we as a species will kill our offspring for reasons of convenience.
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10-11-2013, 11:59 AM
RE: Aliens !, what would embarrass you the most
(10-11-2013 11:51 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(10-11-2013 11:47 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  You're wrong Chas,

http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Offspring

Any new organism produce by a living organism is an offspring. You were an offspring the moment you were an organism....which is basically conception.

Only if a tumor is also an organism. Is it?

A tumor is not an organism.
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10-11-2013, 11:59 AM
RE: Aliens !, what would embarrass you the most
(10-11-2013 11:47 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(10-11-2013 06:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, foetuses aren't offspring. Babies are offspring.

You're wrong Chas,

http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Offspring

Any new organism produce by a living organism is an offspring. You were an offspring the moment you were an organism....which is basically conception.

Sloppy comeback Heywood

You know your grasping at straws when you have to avoid all the dictionary meanings of a word. and before you post the sub definitions, its the primary definition from several dictionaries that count as the most valid.
"Child,baby or babies of an animal"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/offspring
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dicti.../offspring
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defini.../offspring
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/offspring

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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10-11-2013, 12:08 PM
RE: Aliens !, what would embarrass you the most
(10-11-2013 11:59 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(10-11-2013 11:51 AM)Dom Wrote:  Only if a tumor is also an organism. Is it?

A tumor is not an organism.

I see a fetus as a tumor in it's early phases. It is a lump of meat feeding off a host.

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10-11-2013, 01:41 PM
RE: Aliens !, what would embarrass you the most
People, huge apologies! Shocking

I closed this thread by accident. I thought I clicked "post reply" and not "close thread".

I am very sorry for the inconvenience. There is no reason at all to close this thread.

Please carry on.....

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10-11-2013, 01:48 PM
RE: Aliens !, what would embarrass you the most
(10-11-2013 11:47 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(10-11-2013 06:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, foetuses aren't offspring. Babies are offspring.

You're wrong Chas,

http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Offspring

Any new organism produce by a living organism is an offspring. You were an offspring the moment you were an organism....which is basically conception.

You're wrong, Blome,

http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Organism

A foetus isn't an organism. An organism survives on its own.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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