All Powerful and All Knowing?
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18-10-2013, 06:09 AM (This post was last modified: 18-10-2013 06:31 AM by Numenor.)
All Powerful and All Knowing?
Hi... so I haven't been on here for a long time, nor have I been on these forums much so sorry if what I am about to say in this thread has been said before.

So before I start I want to tell you all I am an Atheist, so don't automatically assume I am here to try to prove God exist or anything from what I am saying. Lets try to keep any assumptions or bias out of this for the first part.

A lot of people say it is impossible to be all knowing powerful and all knowing... which I disagree with.

The most common argument I see/hear against the all powerful notion is the boulder argument that most of us are familiar with.

(Assuming this alleged thing is god and a male in the example)

"If God is all powerful then can he create a boulder that even he can't lift? If he can create a boulder that he can't lift then he isn't all powerful because he can't lift the boulder. But if he can't create such a boulder then he isn't all powerful. Therefore it isn't possible to be all powerful or god doesn't exist."

Now I think this argument is a false dichotomy.

Here why I think this. Imagine if you're reading or just finished reading a book like something from Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, or A Song of Ice and Fire.

You for some reason were not content with how whatever you read so you decide to change what happened in your mind or you incorporate yourself into what you just read in a fantasy world.

In this fantasy world you're all powerful and all knowing. Because if anything happens in this world you know about it since you made it happen. You are still all powerful even if you decide to limit yourself or prevent yourself from doing something.

Lets say you incorporate yourself into some cheesy RPG game or some plot where you need to go through a door or tunnel, but it is blocked by an object. Let say it is a boulder.

For some reason you decide that you can't move the boulder for plot purposes. The fact that you can't move the boulder doesn't mean you're not all powerful in your fantasy world. If you do choose to make it that your fantasy self can move the boulder it doesn't mean your not all powerful because you could not not move the boulder.

Part of the concept of being all powerful is freewill. This part of the paradox is where I think most of us get confuse. We are so quick to try to disprove every aspect of someone's god that we chose to go one side of the spectrum instead of just staying in the middle. Just because it begins to get confusing or hard to explain we assume it is not possible.

Hopefully if you read all of this, my point is the concept of being all powerful is possible in a controlled instance such a person's imagination or fantasy. It doesn't help theists (such as Christians) prove anything even if we admit that it is possible to be all powerful.

Because when it comes to the debate over Christianity or what ever other religion, they have ideas/doctrines that they claim are all true and if you disprove even 1 idea of that religion then you have already proved that religion is false, even if some of it is true. Its like doing a math problem, you can do all the work right but if the answer was suppose to be -9 and you forget the negative sign you still have the wrong answer. But in this case for most religions they messed up on the work like 5 steps in a 5 billion step problem.

I know some of you are saying wow this guy is stupid, he doesn't understand that the concept of being all powerful is only possible as he said, someone's imagination.

Well to that I have to say is that we don't know what we are in... we know we exist, and we are in some kind of universe that we aren't in control of. For all we know this universe could be something's imagination.

You probably going to say that is stupid and unscientific.

If I recall when making a guess you should try to meet precedent scientific standard/understanding. To my knowledge there isn't any part of science or logic that completely rules out the part where the universe could be part of something's imagination or in a controlled instance where something all powerful has control over. I am not claiming something that can easily be disprove like the Christian God who is supposedly all powerful, all knowing and all loving. (The all loving part removes the freewill aspect of being all powerful.)

I am not saying it is, but I am not saying it isn't. It is just something that we haven't confirmed yet, but it something we haven't already disproved. I know this sounds a lot like creationist logic where they say see you can't disprove God 100% therefore he exist. The difference between what I am saying and what creationist say is that they claim a whole system of ideas that are dependent on each other to prove their validity, and most of the ideas in their system has already been confirmed false which makes their reasoning falter on itself.

So yeah tell me what you guys think.
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18-10-2013, 07:02 AM
RE: All Powerful and All Knowing?
(18-10-2013 06:09 AM)Numenor Wrote:  So yeah tell me what you guys think.

I think you shouldn't fuck with the standard font. Dodgy

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18-10-2013, 07:06 AM (This post was last modified: 18-10-2013 07:09 AM by sporehux.)
RE: All Powerful and All Knowing?
It may well be arrogant to say but i think Atheist are born of intelligent discovery.
To look into the mostly void with an open mind and adjustable beliefs based on best guess (science) you have to conclude in the "WOW we have NFI, lets keep looking" and shake off the shackles of grandpa's dogma.

We don't need our God/s to revel in this awesome reality, if we happen to be on a turtle back, dream state of an alien entity or part of the answer to = 42, then its only more exclamations to WOW!!!.

If God is real, than im sorry mate, but what you created is far more interesting than you and if even 1/4 of the bible is true then I want to emancipate.

ps: +10 on the font fuking Dodgy

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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18-10-2013, 07:09 AM
RE: All Powerful and All Knowing?
(18-10-2013 07:02 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 06:09 AM)Numenor Wrote:  So yeah tell me what you guys think.

I think you shouldn't fuck with the standard font. Dodgy

Lol my bad for choosing Times New Romans, really wish these forums would just state what the default font is so I can select it. Because a lot of times when you copy and paste stuff it has different fonts. I hate it when the beginning part of my post is the default font and the bottom half is some weird font that whatever I copy pasted from.[/font]
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18-10-2013, 07:15 AM
RE: All Powerful and All Knowing?
(18-10-2013 07:06 AM)sporehux Wrote:  It may well be arrogant to say but i think Atheist are born of intelligent discovery.
To look into the mostly void with an open mind and adjustable beliefs based on best guess (science) you have to conclude in the "WOW we have NFI, lets keep looking" and shake off the shackles of grandpa's dogma.

We don't need our God/s to revel in this awesome reality, if we happen to be on a turtle back, dream state of an alien entity or part of the answer to = 42, then its only more exclamations to WOW!!!.

If God is real, than im sorry mate, but what you created is far more interesting than you and if even 1/4 of the bible is true then I want to emancipate.

ps: +10 on the font fuking Dodgy

I might just be tired since it is 6 am for me and I haven't slept yet. I either I can't comprehend what you're trying to say because I am tired or what you just said was just really random.
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18-10-2013, 07:25 AM
RE: All Powerful and All Knowing?
(18-10-2013 07:15 AM)Numenor Wrote:  I might just be tired since it is 6 am for me and I haven't slept yet. I either I can't comprehend what you're trying to say because I am tired or what you just said was just really random.

I assure you it made sense in my head, you can't prove it didn't Smile

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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18-10-2013, 07:30 AM
RE: All Powerful and All Knowing?
Numenor,

You're confusing the difference between "can't" and "won't". The example you gave where someone could imagine a boulder that can't be moved, but does not stop being all powerful is really an instance of "won't". If they don't stop being all powerful, then it means they actually could move the boulder as soon as they decide to do so.

Another big difference is between fantasy and reality. To apply your logic to a god, it has to meet the test of reality. So then bring that unmovable boulder out of fantasy and into reality and either a god really can't move it at all or the god can't move it now (because that's the situation the god created in your example), but at any time could make it movable. The latter is another instance of "won't" until the god decides to make it movable.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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18-10-2013, 08:23 AM (This post was last modified: 18-10-2013 08:33 AM by Numenor.)
RE: All Powerful and All Knowing?
(18-10-2013 07:30 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Numenor,

You're confusing the difference between "can't" and "won't". The example you gave where someone could imagine a boulder that can't be moved, but does not stop being all powerful is really an instance of "won't". If they don't stop being all powerful, then it means they actually could move the boulder as soon as they decide to do so.

Another big difference is between fantasy and reality. To apply your logic to a god, it has to meet the test of reality. So then bring that unmovable boulder out of fantasy and into reality and either a god really can't move it at all or the god can't move it now (because that's the situation the god created in your example), but at any time could make it movable. The latter is another instance of "won't" until the god decides to make it movable.

Well that was my point with the freewill argument. The ability to move the boulder is up to the godlike figure. In this case the person imagining the fantasy. The boulder's ability to be able to be moved is dependent on the time and situation.

Lets say I am a teacher and I have a few students with me who are willing to listen to me.

There is a football on the ground. When I am in my normal status I am free to pick it up and I can toss it across the field. But I order my students to tie my hands. I can no long simply pickup the football and throw it across the field.

Part of having control of power is the ability to limit your use of it or relinquish it entirely.

It is not that I won't pick up the football or throw it, it is because I can't when my hands are tied and it is not possible for me to do at that moment. I can order my students to untie me so I can pick up the ball and toss it again. So you can see it is like an on and off switch.

So when this all powerful person create this object they can't move, in that moment and time they are capable of genuinely relinquishing whatever ability they have to move the object. Thus they really can't move the object.

It doesn't matter if they can move the object later, it only matters if they genuinely cannot move the object for the specified amount of time.

If the specified amount of time is forever then they can create the object, once they create the object then that is when they stop being all power if they permanently give up their ability to move that object and any way to regain the ability to do so.

Also just because you're all powerful in your fantasy world doesn't mean it doesn't mean there isn't some structure or rules you have follow. You can make whatever decisions you want, but if you want to have a flowing story or plot it has to follow some logic.
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18-10-2013, 08:44 AM (This post was last modified: 18-10-2013 06:14 PM by Numenor.)
RE: All Powerful and All Knowing?
(18-10-2013 07:25 AM)sporehux Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 07:15 AM)Numenor Wrote:  I might just be tired since it is 6 am for me and I haven't slept yet. I either I can't comprehend what you're trying to say because I am tired or what you just said was just really random.

I assure you it made sense in my head, you can't prove it didn't Smile

Well following that train of logic, I am actually you. Your split personality. You have a bad case of a Beautiful Mind/Fight Club syndrome where you do things by yourself but you think there is another person with you.

You can't prove I am not your imaginative alternate ego. Evil_monsterDrinking Beverage
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18-10-2013, 08:50 AM
RE: All Powerful and All Knowing?
(18-10-2013 08:23 AM)Numenor Wrote:  
(18-10-2013 07:30 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Numenor,

You're confusing the difference between "can't" and "won't". The example you gave where someone could imagine a boulder that can't be moved, but does not stop being all powerful is really an instance of "won't". If they don't stop being all powerful, then it means they actually could move the boulder as soon as they decide to do so.

Another big difference is between fantasy and reality. To apply your logic to a god, it has to meet the test of reality. So then bring that unmovable boulder out of fantasy and into reality and either a god really can't move it at all or the god can't move it now (because that's the situation the god created in your example), but at any time could make it movable. The latter is another instance of "won't" until the god decides to make it movable.

Well that was my point with the freewill argument. The ability to move the boulder is up to the godlike figure. In this case the person imagining the fantasy. The boulder's ability to be able to be moved is dependent on the time and situation.

Lets say I am a teacher and I have a few students with me who are willing to listen to me.

There is a football on the ground. When I am in my normal status I am free to pick it up and I can toss it across the field. But I order my students to tie my hands. I can no long simply pickup the football and throw it across the field.

Part of having control of power is the ability to limit your use of it or relinquish it entirely.

It is not that I won't pick up the football or throw it, it is because I can't when my hands are tied and it is not possible for me to do at that moment. I can order my students to untie me so I can pick up the ball and toss it again. So you can see it is like an on and off switch.

So when this all powerful person create this object they can't move, in that moment and time they are capable of genuinely relinquishing whatever ability they have to move the object. Thus they really can't move the object.

It doesn't matter if they can move the object later, it only matters if they genuinely cannot move the object for the specified amount of time.

If the specified amount of time is forever then they can create the object, once they create the object then that is when they stop being all power if they permanently give up their ability to move that object and any way to regain the ability to do so.

Also just because you're all powerful in your fantasy world doesn't mean it doesn't mean there isn't some structure or rules you have follow. You can make whatever decisions you want, but if you want to have a flowing story or plot it has to follow some logic.
The problem is that's not a true "can't". If god can't create a true "can't", then the god is not omnipotent (according to the standard argument anyway). When there is a true "can't" of that kind, it means "can't ever". It's the "can't ever" that god can't both create and be omnipotent.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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