All cellular functions are  irreducibly complex
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19-09-2015, 05:54 AM
RE: All cellular functions are  irreducibly complex
(19-09-2015 03:12 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Yes small changes can accumulate into big changes over time. This is easy to observe and demonstrate in practice.

ok. demonstrate.
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19-09-2015, 06:04 AM
RE: All cellular functions are  irreducibly complex
At work.

The 'small' change that allows for a critter to start digesting/eating plastics, for one.

Am sure some one can provide the link.... (Again)

Or, there are the ring species of birds for another example of 'small' changes.

Of note is GE's lack of answer to Matlda.....
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19-09-2015, 06:07 AM
RE: All cellular functions are  irreducibly complex
(19-09-2015 06:04 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

Yeah, this guy's a piece of work, all right. Tongue

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19-09-2015, 06:34 AM (This post was last modified: 19-09-2015 06:42 AM by Mathilda.)
RE: All cellular functions are  irreducibly complex
(19-09-2015 05:54 AM)Godexists Wrote:  
(19-09-2015 03:12 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Yes small changes can accumulate into big changes over time. This is easy to observe and demonstrate in practice.

ok. demonstrate.

Easy with a genetic algorithm. I do it myself on a regular basis with my GAs. Some I found on youtube.














It has long been established in the scientific literature that the genetic population quickly converges. A lot of work went into trying to delay premature convergence but it was realised that the converged population continues to wander the fitness landscape (i.e. adapting) through mutation. Off-spring that were fitter would be produced higher up the fitness landscape, the less fit would die off and the population as a whole moved upwards.

My own very first GA written in 1996 evolved simple look-up tables. The population quickly converged but over time more complex behaviour developed. They were agents in a grid world which could move, turn, eat and breed. The cost of breeding would be carried by the agent initiating the action. Agents could also sense other agents ahead of them.

Over time the population evolved herding behaviour by hiding behind each other in case the one in front turned round and would then have to breed with it. But if the one in front moved forward the one behind would follow, which was also followed by other agents.

Then they developed the behaviour to rush at each other and turn at the last second. Then agents started evolving to not only rush at each other but avoid being rushed at.

All these changes accumulated over time so that the behaviour of the agent became increasingly complicated.
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19-09-2015, 06:55 AM
RE: All cellular functions are  irreducibly complex
(19-09-2015 06:34 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(19-09-2015 05:54 AM)Godexists Wrote:  ok. demonstrate.

Easy with a genetic algorithm

pfft. You know this idiot wants to see a demonstration of a sponge evolving into a human being. Even as demonstrating the paradigm in reverse. Laugh out load

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19-09-2015, 07:48 AM (This post was last modified: 19-09-2015 07:53 AM by Mathilda.)
RE: All cellular functions are  irreducibly complex
(19-09-2015 06:55 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(19-09-2015 06:34 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Easy with a genetic algorithm

pfft. You know this idiot wants to see a demonstration of a sponge evolving into a human being. Even as demonstrating the paradigm in reverse. Laugh out load

He is deliberately asking for something that cannot be achieved.

He is asking us for what he defines as 'macroevolution' that can be observed.

He is not asking for evidence of it, but an observation of the process actually happening before our eyes. That means within a human life-span at the very most. But whatever we can point to he will define as 'microevolution' because it wasn't given time enough to create large changes.

But with genetic algorithms we can observe the process sped up by many orders of magnitude. These were based on what we know of evolution. It is exactly the same computational process. We know the role of mutation, duplication and information. We can properly describe the process and quantify it, and repeat it at will.

He is denying that small changes cannot accumulate over time to create large changes. But he also cannot state any reason why he should think that this is the case.
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19-09-2015, 08:32 AM
RE: All cellular functions are  irreducibly complex
(19-09-2015 07:48 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(19-09-2015 06:55 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  pfft. You know this idiot wants to see a demonstration of a sponge evolving into a human being. Even as demonstrating the paradigm in reverse. Laugh out load

He is deliberately asking for something that cannot be achieved.

He is asking us for what he defines as 'macroevolution' that can be observed.

He is not asking for evidence of it, but an observation of the process actually happening before our eyes. That means within a human life-span at the very most. But whatever we can point to he will define as 'microevolution' because it wasn't given time enough to create large changes.

But with genetic algorithms we can observe the process sped up by many orders of magnitude. These were based on what we know of evolution. It is exactly the same computational process.

I know that. You know that. The entire intelligent, civilized world knows that. But these fucking creeps... Hobo

Even the experience of taking them to witness the live birth of a cat from a dog would be corrupted to fit their agenda. Dodgy

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19-09-2015, 09:14 AM
RE: All cellular functions are  irreducibly complex
(19-09-2015 08:32 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  I know that. You know that. The entire intelligent, civilized world knows that. But these fucking creeps... Hobo

Even the experience of taking them to witness the live birth of a cat from a dog would be corrupted to fit their agenda. Dodgy

Agreed.
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19-09-2015, 01:31 PM
RE: All cellular functions are  irreducibly complex
(19-09-2015 07:48 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  He is asking us for what he defines as 'macroevolution' that can be observed.

Since we can and do observe microevolution, the question is "On what basis can we assume there is no macroevolution?"

Oh, and this.

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19-09-2015, 04:27 PM
RE: All cellular functions are  irreducibly complex
(19-09-2015 06:34 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(19-09-2015 05:54 AM)Godexists Wrote:  ok. demonstrate.

Easy with a genetic algorithm. I do it myself on a regular basis with my GAs. Some I found on youtube.














It has long been established in the scientific literature that the genetic population quickly converges. A lot of work went into trying to delay premature convergence but it was realised that the converged population continues to wander the fitness landscape (i.e. adapting) through mutation. Off-spring that were fitter would be produced higher up the fitness landscape, the less fit would die off and the population as a whole moved upwards.

My own very first GA written in 1996 evolved simple look-up tables. The population quickly converged but over time more complex behaviour developed. They were agents in a grid world which could move, turn, eat and breed. The cost of breeding would be carried by the agent initiating the action. Agents could also sense other agents ahead of them.

Over time the population evolved herding behaviour by hiding behind each other in case the one in front turned round and would then have to breed with it. But if the one in front moved forward the one behind would follow, which was also followed by other agents.

Then they developed the behaviour to rush at each other and turn at the last second. Then agents started evolving to not only rush at each other but avoid being rushed at.

All these changes accumulated over time so that the behaviour of the agent became increasingly complicated.

You have not shown that macro evolution above species happens.
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