All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
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01-03-2013, 05:55 AM
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
(01-03-2013 05:44 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(01-03-2013 05:31 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I'm sure Dawkins know more than me about evolution. That doesn't mean I can't call him out when I think he is making an error. Why is he such a super hero to you?

He isn't. In fact he's done a lot of dumb things, and needs help in a few areas, where he could a lot better. That doen't make him wrong in the area you said he was, which is simply not true. Why do you project your crap so much, instead of asking or investigatin ? Oh that's right. Jebus tells you things.
Why do you think I make these threads? So you guys can challenge my ideas. So far, with a couple of exceptions, your skills as thinkers suck. I see red herrings, ad hominen attacks, straw man arguments but nothing that really presents a challenge to my current world veiw. I gotta be honest now. I'm a little disapointed both in the maturity and the substance of this forum. I gotta weed through a hell of a lot of circle jerking just to come accross a good nugget or two.
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01-03-2013, 06:22 AM
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
The problem isn't us, HeyJude. It's your attitude. As pointed out to you in your first thread. With some tips on how not to be a troll and/or douchebag.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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01-03-2013, 06:33 AM
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
(01-03-2013 06:22 AM)Phaedrus Wrote:  The problem isn't us, HeyJude. It's your attitude. As pointed out to you in your first thread. With some tips on how not to be a troll and/or douchebag.
If the you didn't have a problem you wouldn't need to call me names or engage in ad hominem attacks or negative down grades on my rep. I have taken a lot of abuse since I have gotten here and have always "turned the other cheek". I'm not the one being a troll and/or douchebag. Some people don't want me here because they enjoy the atheists circle jerk....no theists allowed.
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01-03-2013, 06:41 AM
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
I'll repost:





Here's some things you should work on:



1. Read other peoples' posts thoroughly

2. Do not tell someone that they believe X, based on your own guess or inference. Ask what they believe, don't tell them what you think they believe

3. When making a thread, inflammatory titles like this one will NOT win you friends

4. Don't play games when making a new topic. State clearly what you're trying to demonstrate and lay out your evidence clearly and concisely. Don't be "cute" about it



Note, I'm not telling you to agree with me. I'm not even telling you to be civil. You can throw ad homs all you like if you follow the rules above. This is just basic forum debate 101.

The shit you're doing now? That's trolling, whether you realize it or not.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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01-03-2013, 06:42 AM (This post was last modified: 01-03-2013 08:54 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
(01-03-2013 03:58 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(01-03-2013 03:45 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Also, I think you're missing the purpose of the studies. The point is not to test God, he is irrelevant. The point is to test prayer, to see if it had a beneficial effect, regardless of what the intervening force or power actually is. If the studies had shown that prayer did help, then religious people would be debating over which god was responsible, so that's not the point. Does prayer help? No, it does not. Maybe they're praying to the wrong god. Maybe there is no god. Regardless, prayer (and whatever force may cause it to work) does not appear to do anything, and thus any agent of causation has no evidence for their existence.


So tell me again how the gap in our understanding is proof for your god?

How do you go about testing prayer without testing for the existence of God? If God decides He will not be the subject of a scientific study, what makes you think you can compel him to do so? God is an essential component to the prayer process.

Additionally if you claim the studies are a test of prayer and not test of God, you can never say prayer studies are evidence against the existence of any god.

Prayer studies are junk science at best. I hope you are not relying upon them to formulate your world veiw.


Answer 1: If god does not exist, then testing prayer would not test him. So instead of testing something that is not measurable (god), they were testing for the effects of the prayer (in case complications and recovery rates), to see if the prayer itself could cause a statistically significant change in patient health. This might be a hard concept for you to understand, but not everyone bases their lives around the existence of your god. This study tested the effects of prayer and prayer alone, a god was not needed or tested, merely the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of prayer on patients. If the prayer had been effectitve, that would not have proven the existence of any god, let alone your specific God. Get over it.


Answer 2: I can't compel something that refuses to prove it's existence, thus it is a moot point. A hidden god that refuse to interact in reality is IDENTICAL (as far as we are concerned) to a non-existent god. Claim divine mystery all you want, but in science we prove things by testing them. If your God refuses to be tested, even indirectly (and at the cost of the well being of his followers), then you God's existence is not even worth consideration.


Questions: What evidence do you have to support the assertions you're making on behalf of your God (that God can't be compelled)? What makes your God essential to the effectiveness of prayer? Do you really think your God is the only thing that has ever been prayed to? Are you trying to infer that only your God is capable of answering prayer, and yet chooses not to?


Prayer studies are silly, and they're funded by silly Christian fundamentalist backed groups, in an attempt to validate their silly beliefs based on their silly books. It's all rather silly, and I hope that all things considered, that you are not basing your world view on the silly little books, silly little religion, and silly little God that is the basis for this silly little study.


All the study means to me is that intercessory prayer does nothing helpful. You have no evidence to claim that your god answers prayer, or that prayer is proof for your God. Nor can I say that the lack of prayer's effectiveness proves there is no God. It is just another piece of evidence that supports the premise that there is no god; or if he does exist, he/she/it is actively hiding its presence, chooses not intervene, or can't intervene in our reality. It could be used as evidence against an explicitly interventionist deity, such as Yahweh, but is much less effective evidence against a pantheist or deist god.


Are the studies a silver bullet against Yahweh? No, but nothing really is. It's just another piece of evidence to add to our understanding of reality, an understanding that does not need a god to operate. Occam's Razor takes care of the rest.

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01-03-2013, 06:58 AM (This post was last modified: 01-03-2013 10:22 AM by ClydeLee.)
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
Your concept of these threads being ideas based on thinking is skewed. It is, but your ideas are on the par of flawed that you claim these tests are.

You are equating that prayer has to be connected to the conscious God acting on the prayer. That's only one concept of looking at the idea of prayer scientifically. That's why they value the idea of people knowing/not knowing of the prayer. It's looking to judge prayer in it's physical form in how it affects someone mentally; it also judges to see if there is any impressive correlation that would be unexplainable without supernatural intervention-which there hasn't been any of.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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01-03-2013, 10:07 AM
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
(01-03-2013 03:26 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I often hear atheist claim that scientific studies of prayer show that it doesn't work. I cringe that people actually put faith in studies which are obviously fatally flawed. How do you test God? How do you control that variable?

Suppose I am a researcher looking for evidence for the "power of prayer". I ask my participants to pray for a certain group of heart patients. Does God actually consider those prayers to be prayers or merely elements in a "scientific" study? Maybe God has decided he will not be tested and ignores those prayers or maybe he decides to apply the "graces" from those "prayers" to people not under the scrutiny of the researcher.

There is a reason researchers will often keep the true purpose of a study away from the test subjects....they don't want the study to influence the actions of thier subjects. With God that is impossible to do. A researcher studying the power of prayer has to hope that his subject, God, will cooperate in the study...he can't trick God into cooperating.

Scientific studies of prayer are bad science.
It makes no difference regardless. We are a speck living on a speck within a solar system that is itself a speck within a galaxy that is a speck within a universe that very well might be just one of many. No god powerful enough to be able to hear the thoughts of every person distinctly from one another and to be able to answer any prayers it chooses from somewhere w-a-a-a--a-a-y "out there" would give a rats ass what we pray for because that god wouldn't be listening to begin with. No, that wasn't a scientific analysis, but then I don't need science to prove that I'm breathing either even though it can.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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01-03-2013, 10:14 AM
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
"Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on the planet. Then all things are at risk. It is as when a conflagration .... bla bla bla"

And of course, this one just *knows* he is accounted as one of them. Weeping

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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01-03-2013, 10:17 AM
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
It's hard to know everything when you don't know anything. Tongue

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01-03-2013, 12:08 PM (This post was last modified: 01-03-2013 12:13 PM by Adenosis.)
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
(01-03-2013 05:55 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Why do you think I make these threads? So you guys can challenge my ideas. So far, with a couple of exceptions, your skills as thinkers suck. I see red herrings, ad hominen attacks, straw man arguments but nothing that really presents a challenge to my current world veiw. I gotta be honest now. I'm a little disapointed both in the maturity and the substance of this forum. I gotta weed through a hell of a lot of circle jerking just to come accross a good nugget or two.


(rant on)
Oh yes, because we need to discredit your world view. No. We aren't obligated to prove any negatives. The burden of proof is on the one making the claim, the theist (you). You are making claims that evolution had a helping hand, and that god is too sneaky to be caught by experiments done with prayer. The experiments done in an attempt to show praying works came out that prayer (at least in those situations) does not work. There are many reasons why this could be, as people have pointed out several times before you said

"better not think of that as evidence against god"

No one has ever said it is disproves god. You are awfully protective of your idea of god.

There is no hard evidence that Fairies, Unicorns, the flying spaghetti monster, Godzilla, Goku the super saiyan, Broley the legendary super saiyan, Ichigo Kurosaki, Dexter Morgan, Pixies, Dragons, Sheep that fly, Frankenstein, Dogs that fly, pink and blue zebras, any other hypothetical god, and the boogey man do not exist in reality. There is only a lack of evidence to support their existence. We have stories about these things, we have movies about these things, we have people that may or may not like these things, none of which constitutes as evidence for their existence. We typically say that these things clearly don't exist because we made them up, we used our imagination. People say it is common sense that these things do not exist.

YET when it comes to god, ohhh shit, we have people accepting a collection of stories written millennia ago as evidence for something that clearly if exists, doesn't give two shits who lives and who dies. Some entity that is so vital to our placement in which afterlife we go to, that he prevents us from knowing if he actually exists. How fucking sick?

Thiests (like you) enjoy pointing out there is no evidence against god.

So Fucking What?

Do you have any idea how many hypothetical entities I can come up with that are unfalsifiable? does this mean they exist? No.

Give a single piece of evidence in support of your god.
If you can't do that, I suggest you quit portraying the stereotypical hypocritical Christian that bashes science without having any scientific knowledge and while ignoring the fact that you have absolutely no evidence to support your beliefs. We have rational reasons for the things we accept, you do not.You are just one more delusional being on this planet that was either indoctrinated to believe a god exists (which could very easily be done for any of the other things I mentioned above, believing in something has no bearing on it's existence in reality, only in your mind), or your someone that had an experience you couldn't explain in any way other than that god touched your heart and helped you or some crazy shit like that. People misinterpret natural experiences all the time for divine intervention, why? Because of the pathetically low percentage of people that are scientific literate and have critical thinking skills. Even in one of the worlds superpowers, the Unites States, most people are completely clueless.

One piece of evidence. One.
If you can't do this, I suggest you grow up and stop believing in fairy tales. (rant off)

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