All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
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01-03-2013, 03:03 PM
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
(01-03-2013 02:56 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(01-03-2013 02:51 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  There is no reason to compare me to a two year old except to provide cover for you weak argument.
I forgive you for the insult.
You were supposed to say, "what's an ahtheist?" Tongue
I try not berate people for grammer or spelling mistakes except for the sake of comedy as you have done. I'm not feeling like a comedian today which is probably why I missed it.
Thanks for the laugh.
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01-03-2013, 03:37 PM
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
(01-03-2013 02:51 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(01-03-2013 02:40 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  * repeat ...
The PLURAL OF AHTHEIST is ATHEISTS.
Do you plan on English 101 with Bio 101 ?
Clearly you were/are leading up to claiming that "fitness" for an environment is what you consider evidence., and you're just royally pissed off like a 2 year old, that we guessed what you are up to. So now your argument comes down to "oh that's just silly'. Fail.
I still want to know what credentials you have, or what makes you think you can tell a PhD Evolutionary Biologist they are wrong.
There is no reason to compare me to a two year old except to provide cover for you weak argument.
I forgive you for the insult.

Please stop forgiving me. I tole ya.
And saying an argument is weak, without bothering to point out why, as you have been doing since posting your crap, then saying what YOU psoted was a strawman, and failing to respond to ANYTHING, is just typical theist crap. We see it all the time. You are nothing special, even though we all see you obviously think you have some unique or specual message that everyone else on the planet missed. Your credentials ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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01-03-2013, 05:12 PM (This post was last modified: 01-03-2013 05:31 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
(01-03-2013 03:26 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I often hear atheist claim that scientific studies of prayer show that it doesn't work. I cringe that people actually put faith in studies which are obviously fatally flawed. How do you test God? How do you control that variable?

Suppose I am a researcher looking for evidence for the "power of prayer". I ask my participants to pray for a certain group of heart patients. Does God actually consider those prayers to be prayers or merely elements in a "scientific" study? Maybe God has decided he will not be tested and ignores those prayers or maybe he decides to apply the "graces" from those "prayers" to people not under the scrutiny of the researcher.

There is a reason researchers will often keep the true purpose of a study away from the test subjects....they don't want the study to influence the actions of their subjects. With God that is impossible to do. A researcher studying the power of prayer has to hope that his subject, God, will cooperate in the study...he can't trick God into cooperating.

Scientific studies of prayer are bad science.

There are many reasons why a study on prayer would fail.

God is unchanging, and unable to do anything other than what his is programmed to do. (having feelings, making choices, etc all require a change of state) Leading to some interesting possibilities...

1. God has a plan, and everybody is predestined to do everything they are already doing, making all prayers pointless.

2. God can change, and doesn't have a plan, but wishes to remain mysterious as to not interfere with free will. All miracles therefore would not be a product of god, because they would interfere with free will, and unfairly influence people to follow him. The consequence of this mode of thinking is that essentially all miracles interfere with free will. Thus making all prayers pointless except to let people help themselves emotionally with out actually helping anybody else.


3. God has a plan, but due to freewill you can deviate from the plan. Prayers directly interfere with that plan, but he has to fulfill that prayer in such a way that it cannot be traced back to him so that he doesn't interfere with freewill. The consequence of this is that all miracles are either mundane, or the causes and effects are so far removed from each other that human intervention will always do the better job.

4. Finally if you are referring to the bible...
Matthew 4:7-8
Mark 1:12-13
Luke 4:12-13

God specifically tells the devil not to test him, but doesn't mention anything about human kind. I think if he didn't want us to test him he would have said so.


Also your argument got some elements wrong, so here is the reference.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567

BACKGROUND:

Intercessory prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, but claims of benefits are not supported by well-controlled clinical trials. Prior studies have not addressed whether prayer itself or knowledge/certainty that prayer is being provided may influence outcome. We evaluated whether (1) receiving intercessory prayer or (2) being certain of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with uncomplicated recovery after coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery.
METHODS:

Patients at 6 US hospitals were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; 597 did not receive intercessory prayer also after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; and 601 received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive prayer. Intercessory prayer was provided for 14 days, starting the night before CABG. The primary outcome was presence of any complication within 30 days of CABG. Secondary outcomes were any major event and mortality.
RESULTS:

In the 2 groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% CI 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.28). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups.
CONCLUSIONS:

Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

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01-03-2013, 05:27 PM
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
Besides, that ain't the purpose of prayer. Prayer is to build a relationship with god. Faith is what makes shit happen. And not, gee, I don't hafta do shit kinda faith; more like I'm so kick-ass the universe cannot function without me kinda faith. Tongue

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01-03-2013, 05:36 PM
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
(01-03-2013 05:27 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Besides, that ain't the purpose of prayer. Prayer is to build a relationship with god. Faith is what makes shit happen. And not, gee, I don't hafta do shit kinda faith; more like I'm so kick-ass the universe cannot function without me kinda faith. Tongue
God wanting anything implies that god is lacking something thus imperfect.

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01-03-2013, 05:48 PM
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
(01-03-2013 05:36 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(01-03-2013 05:27 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Besides, that ain't the purpose of prayer. Prayer is to build a relationship with god. Faith is what makes shit happen. And not, gee, I don't hafta do shit kinda faith; more like I'm so kick-ass the universe cannot function without me kinda faith. Tongue
God wanting anything implies that god is lacking something thus imperfect.
Where is there a "god wants" in that statement, you fucking fuck? Big Grin

God is a useful simulation for an I who desires not to feel alone. If there were an "actual LC," he don't give a fuck either way. Tongue

And besides, I'm drinking. Makes me more "magnanimous" where theism is concerned. Thumbsup

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01-03-2013, 06:18 PM
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
(01-03-2013 05:48 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(01-03-2013 05:36 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  God wanting anything implies that god is lacking something thus imperfect.
Where is there a "god wants" in that statement, you fucking fuck? Big Grin

God is a useful simulation for an I who desires not to feel alone. If there were an "actual LC," he don't give a fuck either way. Tongue

And besides, I'm drinking. Makes me more "magnanimous" where theism is concerned. Thumbsup
Good point.

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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01-03-2013, 08:57 PM
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
(01-03-2013 03:26 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I often hear atheist claim that scientific studies of prayer show that it doesn't work. I cringe that people actually put faith in studies which are obviously fatally flawed. How do you test God? How do you control that variable?

Suppose I am a researcher looking for evidence for the "power of prayer". I ask my participants to pray for a certain group of heart patients. Does God actually consider those prayers to be prayers or merely elements in a "scientific" study? Maybe God has decided he will not be tested and ignores those prayers or maybe he decides to apply the "graces" from those "prayers" to people not under the scrutiny of the researcher.

There is a reason researchers will often keep the true purpose of a study away from the test subjects....they don't want the study to influence the actions of thier subjects. With God that is impossible to do. A researcher studying the power of prayer has to hope that his subject, God, will cooperate in the study...he can't trick God into cooperating.

Scientific studies of prayer are bad science.
yes thats right. your god ignores prayers and allows poeple to die horrible deaths because he is pissed that people are testing him. that god sounds like an asshole. but i guess thats consistant with your bronze age war god.
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01-03-2013, 11:15 PM
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
(01-03-2013 08:57 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  yes thats right. your god ignores prayers and allows poeple to die horrible deaths because he is pissed that people are testing him. that god sounds like an asshole. but i guess thats consistant with your bronze age war god.
Druid, for some reason when I read your post, I heard the voice of Jim Jefferies speaking every word you wrote.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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01-03-2013, 11:52 PM
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
Argument:

1. Invisible dragons live in all cigarette lighters. That is where the fire comes from.
2. Any attempts to test these lighters, the dragons will erase all memory and data.
3. In conclusion, you can never be sure whether invisible dragons live in cigarette lighters.

Prove me wrong, atheists.

It doesn't matter if we ask for the evidence for the premise, or attempt to naturally explain the resulting fire.
Dragons gonna drag, trolls gonna troll.
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