All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
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03-03-2013, 01:15 AM
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
(02-03-2013 02:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-03-2013 02:34 PM)StorMFront Wrote:  How about you give us a good example of a prayer to use that would save terminally ill patients in a hospitals. We could then use that prayer on half of them (with faithful people over your choosing) and see if that prayer actually works. Statically, over several different hospitals we should be able to determining if the law of random chance is being effected by your prayer. Since, you know what god can do and cant do.


I think you are missing the OP's point. The studies are flawed if God refuses to be tested.
God won't answer the prayers in the study, so there is no statistical difference between groups.

This is logical if God cares more about His pride than about people's welfare. What a dick.
God could have numerous reasons for not wanting to be tested that do not include pride. Calling God a dick suggests that you know God cares more about his pride then people's welfare. Did you recieve this devine revelation or are you just calling God a dick because you're a........
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03-03-2013, 01:28 AM
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
(02-03-2013 02:37 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(02-03-2013 02:25 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  A normal prayer is a solemn request to God for help or thanks. The prayers in the studies are different because they are also elements of a scientific study. In order for the study to be used as meaningful evidence against the power of normal prayers, the researchers would have to secure God's cooperation that He will treat elements of a scientific study the same way He treats normal prayers. Prayer studies change at least two variables, one of which is the nature of the prayer itself. That is why they are fundamentally flawed.
If God is actually existent and in control of everything, then wouldn't scientific studies themselves be impossible because God could change the outcomes always?

Take your bias out of the equation. I mentioned "Zeus' will" and "Vishnu's will" to make a point -- you can't control for things that someone assumes are there but can't be measured. Anyone could deny the results of any study of anything based on assumptions that Zeus or Vishnu were responsible for "fixing" the results.

Here's a great example of prayer not working -- Jesus' prayer at Gethsemane. One ought to assume that Jesus knew how to pray properly. Also, because Jesus is assumed to be God, it logically follows that God wanted what Jesus wanted... to "have this cup passed from him" (to not have to die). But Jesus' prayer was not answered -- he died. This may be only one mere example of prayer failing to work, but Christians claim that it "always" works, and therefore they still have to account for it.
Regarding the bolded part: Sure, anyone can deny any study they want for all sorts of reasons. However in this case a rational person will deny the validity of a prayer study because it is fatally flawed for the reasons I have pointed out. Further the reason the prayer study is invalid has nothing to do with God's existence. It has to do with the inability to secure the cooperation of an existent or non-existent God. If you claim the prayer study isn't about testing God thats fine, but then you can't credibly claim prayer studies prove prayers to God don't work or are evidence that God does not exist.
Regarding the Jesus part. I could refute that but I won't. Some other theist can if they want. I am not here to defend any religion or try to convert you to a religion. I am here to challenge your world veiw.
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03-03-2013, 02:03 AM
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
(03-03-2013 01:28 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(02-03-2013 02:37 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  If God is actually existent and in control of everything, then wouldn't scientific studies themselves be impossible because God could change the outcomes always?

Take your bias out of the equation. I mentioned "Zeus' will" and "Vishnu's will" to make a point -- you can't control for things that someone assumes are there but can't be measured. Anyone could deny the results of any study of anything based on assumptions that Zeus or Vishnu were responsible for "fixing" the results.

Here's a great example of prayer not working -- Jesus' prayer at Gethsemane. One ought to assume that Jesus knew how to pray properly. Also, because Jesus is assumed to be God, it logically follows that God wanted what Jesus wanted... to "have this cup passed from him" (to not have to die). But Jesus' prayer was not answered -- he died. This may be only one mere example of prayer failing to work, but Christians claim that it "always" works, and therefore they still have to account for it.
Regarding the bolded part: Sure, anyone can deny any study they want for all sorts of reasons. However in this case a rational person will deny the validity of a prayer study because it is fatally flawed for the reasons I have pointed out. Further the reason the prayer study is invalid has nothing to do with God's existence. It has to do with the inability to secure the cooperation of an existent or non-existent God. If you claim the prayer study isn't about testing God thats fine, but then you can't credibly claim prayer studies prove prayers to God don't work or are evidence that God does not exist.
Regarding the Jesus part. I could refute that but I won't. Some other theist can if they want. I am not here to defend any religion or try to convert you to a religion. I am here to challenge your world veiw.
If you want to challenge my world view, a good start would be to refute the Jesus part.
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03-03-2013, 02:41 AM
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
(03-03-2013 02:03 AM)Jakel Wrote:  
(03-03-2013 01:28 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Regarding the bolded part: Sure, anyone can deny any study they want for all sorts of reasons. However in this case a rational person will deny the validity of a prayer study because it is fatally flawed for the reasons I have pointed out. Further the reason the prayer study is invalid has nothing to do with God's existence. It has to do with the inability to secure the cooperation of an existent or non-existent God. If you claim the prayer study isn't about testing God thats fine, but then you can't credibly claim prayer studies prove prayers to God don't work or are evidence that God does not exist.
Regarding the Jesus part. I could refute that but I won't. Some other theist can if they want. I am not here to defend any religion or try to convert you to a religion. I am here to challenge your world veiw.
If you want to challenge my world view, a good start would be to refute the Jesus part.
If you are an atheist whose world veiw revolves solely around real or precieved errors in the bible, you are too narrow minded for me to bother. I want to challenge the minds of thinkers....not those who are fixated.
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03-03-2013, 02:49 AM
Re: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
I chuckled at the rational bit...

It works to prove what I said before, but in regards to a hypothetical God. It proves that God prayed either: doesn't respond to all,prayers, refuses to be tested, or doesn't care about aiding illness. It adds up to a petty malevolent God that most wouldn't want to worship if real.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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03-03-2013, 05:30 AM
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
(03-03-2013 02:41 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(03-03-2013 02:03 AM)Jakel Wrote:  If you want to challenge my world view, a good start would be to refute the Jesus part.
If you are an atheist whose world veiw revolves solely around real or precieved errors in the bible, you are too narrow minded for me to bother. I want to challenge the minds of thinkers....not those who are fixated.
I'm narrow minded. ok. Drinking Beverage Believe it or not I actually consider every point being made here by theists. Even Egor's Shocking . I'm an atheist because that's more or less the only reasonable position in my opinion. If you want to change my world view, it's shit like that you need to explain to me. Are my world view solely based upon real/perceived errors in the bible? No. Where did I say that? I just said it would be a good start to explain this, since it was already being discussed. I would like to hear your explanation on the matter.

I forgive you for calling me narrow minded.
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03-03-2013, 05:53 AM
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
(03-03-2013 05:30 AM)Jakel Wrote:  I forgive you for calling me narrow minded.

Thankyou. I shouldn't have said you were narrow minded. I am sorry.

If you read my introduction in the introduction thread. I claimed right there that I wasn't interested in defending any religion nor am I interested in converting anyone on this forum to a religion. With that in mind, I should have just ignored what you said about your great example of prayer not working and left it that. If I am unwilling to comment on it, then I shouldn't have commented on it. I baited you and that was wrong.
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03-03-2013, 06:12 AM
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
(03-03-2013 01:28 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(02-03-2013 02:37 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  If God is actually existent and in control of everything, then wouldn't scientific studies themselves be impossible because God could change the outcomes always?

Take your bias out of the equation. I mentioned "Zeus' will" and "Vishnu's will" to make a point -- you can't control for things that someone assumes are there but can't be measured. Anyone could deny the results of any study of anything based on assumptions that Zeus or Vishnu were responsible for "fixing" the results.

Here's a great example of prayer not working -- Jesus' prayer at Gethsemane. One ought to assume that Jesus knew how to pray properly. Also, because Jesus is assumed to be God, it logically follows that God wanted what Jesus wanted... to "have this cup passed from him" (to not have to die). But Jesus' prayer was not answered -- he died. This may be only one mere example of prayer failing to work, but Christians claim that it "always" works, and therefore they still have to account for it.
Regarding the bolded part: Sure, anyone can deny any study they want for all sorts of reasons. However in this case a rational person will deny the validity of a prayer study because it is fatally flawed for the reasons I have pointed out. Further the reason the prayer study is invalid has nothing to do with God's existence. It has to do with the inability to secure the cooperation of an existent or non-existent God. If you claim the prayer study isn't about testing God thats fine, but then you can't credibly claim prayer studies prove prayers to God don't work or are evidence that God does not exist.
Regarding the Jesus part. I could refute that but I won't. Some other theist can if they want. I am not here to defend any religion or try to convert you to a religion. I am here to challenge your world veiw.

Hi Hey-would-ja-blow-me,
Thanks for the respect you show also, Mr. Troll apprentice. In order for you to be a challenge to anyone, Mr. Mouse That Tried To Roar, you would need an intellect and at least a little education.

BTW your god is said to be "divine", not DE-vine, unless you meant he was taken off the vine. Was your Jebus de-vined ? One never knows with you. and view is spelled v-i-e-w.
YOU don't get to decree, (as pompous-ass believers such as you and Egor seem to be unable to resist), declaring from your papal thrones what "a rational person" would or would not do, in-as-much you have no experience in that area, apparently. One can actually claim any sort of nonsense one wants, (such as your "fitness paradigm crap), and have nothing to back it up. You actually think you know more that all the researchers who did the studies.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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03-03-2013, 06:22 AM
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
(03-03-2013 06:12 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(03-03-2013 01:28 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Regarding the bolded part: Sure, anyone can deny any study they want for all sorts of reasons. However in this case a rational person will deny the validity of a prayer study because it is fatally flawed for the reasons I have pointed out. Further the reason the prayer study is invalid has nothing to do with God's existence. It has to do with the inability to secure the cooperation of an existent or non-existent God. If you claim the prayer study isn't about testing God thats fine, but then you can't credibly claim prayer studies prove prayers to God don't work or are evidence that God does not exist.
Regarding the Jesus part. I could refute that but I won't. Some other theist can if they want. I am not here to defend any religion or try to convert you to a religion. I am here to challenge your world veiw.

Hi Hey-would-ja-blow-me,
Thanks for the respect you show also, Mr. Troll apprentice. In order for you to be a challenge to anyone, Mr. Mouse That Tried To Roar, you would need an intellect and at least a little education.

BTW your god is said to be "divine", not DE-vine, unless you meant he was taken off the vine. Was your Jebus de-vined ? One never knows with you. and view is spelled v-i-e-w.
YOU don't get to decree, (as pompous-ass believers such as you and Egor seem to be unable to resist), declaring from your papal thrones what "a rational person" would or would not do, in-as-much you have no experience in that area, apparently. One can actually claim any sort of nonsense one wants, (such as your "fitness paradigm crap), and have nothing to back it up. You actually think you know more that all the researchers who did the studies.


I admit that my spelling skills are poor. I'm sure I'll be providing you with a lot of fodder in that respect.
You said: "You actually think you know more that(sic) all the researchers who did the studies"
No. My auto mechanic knows more about fixing cars then I do. However If I see him trying to run my engine without any oil in the crank case...I'm going to call him out on it.
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03-03-2013, 06:24 AM
RE: All scientific studies regarding prayer are fatally flawed
(03-03-2013 01:15 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(02-03-2013 02:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  I think you are missing the OP's point. The studies are flawed if God refuses to be tested.
God won't answer the prayers in the study, so there is no statistical difference between groups.

This is logical if God cares more about His pride than about people's welfare. What a dick.
God could have numerous reasons for not wanting to be tested that do not include pride. Calling God a dick suggests that you know God cares more about his pride then people's welfare. Did you recieve this devine revelation or are you just calling God a dick because you're a........


I know precisely as much about god as you do. Nothing.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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