All the Theist Arguments
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08-02-2015, 08:11 AM
RE: All the Theist Arguments
(08-02-2015 07:57 AM)rookiebatman Wrote:  
(07-02-2015 08:31 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  16) Everyone actually, instinctively knows that God exists, and anyone who says otherwise is just lying. (Call this the presuppositionalist presupposition if you're feeling respectful, or Sye-Ten Bullshitcate if you're not.)

I've not yet seen any of Bruggencate's debates. Does he, dare I ask, try to back this up with evidence, or just claim it as fact with no support?

Sye's only "evidence" is that god has revealed the truth to him in a way that he can be certain...or some such drivel. He also "doesn't do bible study with atheists" because we are apparently all actively denying what we also know to be true.

Watch the STB/Dillahunty debate; it is difficult to get through but not as bad as some of the others and will give a good look at the complete nonsense that is presuppositional apologetics.

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(07-02-2015 08:31 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  17) The broad plurality of religion and faith, the fact that most of the world believes in SOME god or another, points to an underlying truth about the universe (the existence of God) to which all people are drawn. (Let's call this CS Lewis's argument from plurality, but it's probably got some formal name I don't know.)

This seems like a strange argument to me. I feel like the plurality of religions makes it a lot less likely that any one of them is true. Has this one been used a lot, or just a couple times?

I've heard it a number of times. To me it points to the fact that people are all basically the same and the desire to have answers for things we don't understand is strong. The wild variations in the conclusions underlines the point that we aren't tapping into any actual truth, just making up comforting bullshit.

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08-02-2015, 10:39 AM
RE: All the Theist Arguments
(08-02-2015 08:11 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Watch the STB/Dillahunty debate; it is difficult to get through but not as bad as some of the others and will give a good look at the complete nonsense that is presuppositional apologetics.

Oh, I definitely have every intention of watching that debate. Matt Dillahunty was the person who sparked my interest in theism debates in general, but what that led was a snowball effect of me putting together a list of over 600 debates that I found on YouTube, and since I'm just a little bit OCD, I'm watching them all in chronological order. So, I definitely will watch that one, but probably not for a long while.

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08-02-2015, 11:12 AM
RE: All the Theist Arguments
The Cheese Sandwich Argument

[Image: JesusOnToast2.jpg]

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08-02-2015, 11:34 AM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2015 12:04 PM by Reltzik.)
RE: All the Theist Arguments
(08-02-2015 07:57 AM)rookiebatman Wrote:  
(07-02-2015 08:31 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  Here's three more from your list:

15) Reality and facts about reality cannot sustain themselves, but must be sustained by being cataloged or known in a mind that is beyond reality. That mind is God. (I've also heard this called the Ontological argument. IIRC, "Ontological" is a broad category of argument, and there are many different ontological arguments for God.)

I would consider this to be inclusive with #12, the Transcendental Argument. I don't know that I did a great job of explaining #12, but this is more or less how I understand it. Essentially, knowledge and understanding cannot exist with God.

The distinction is that in #12, God is (supposedly) required to establish and maintain the rules of logic and our capacity to ever know anything, whereas in #15, God is supposedly required to establish and maintain EXISTENCE. You could fold the two together, I suppose.

(08-02-2015 07:57 AM)rookiebatman Wrote:  
(07-02-2015 08:31 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  16) Everyone actually, instinctively knows that God exists, and anyone who says otherwise is just lying. (Call this the presuppositionalist presupposition if you're feeling respectful, or Sye-Ten Bullshitcate if you're not.)

I've not yet seen any of Bruggencate's debates. Does he, dare I ask, try to back this up with evidence, or just claim it as fact with no support?

Essentially, he has received unquestionable divine revelation to this effect. .... no, we're not allowed to question it. It is unquestionable. Also, solipsism, therefore, we can't know it's false, but this is a shortcut past solipsism, so he can know it's true. .... it's hard to call it support when it's as half-assed and disorganized as this. Watch the Sye-vs-Matt debate to see it on full display. Every time your brain wants to escape out of your ears, take a shot. For extra credit, ponder how Sye's god could be the same god that enforces the rules of logic.

EDIT: But however Sye-Ten approaches it, this is the central point of presup. The idea is that we all KNOW God exists and are in denial. The presup strategy is not to attempt to prove to us that which we already know, but rather to confront the presuppositions that supposedly keep us in denial so as to remove that denial.

(08-02-2015 07:57 AM)rookiebatman Wrote:  
(07-02-2015 08:31 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  17) The broad plurality of religion and faith, the fact that most of the world believes in SOME god or another, points to an underlying truth about the universe (the existence of God) to which all people are drawn. (Let's call this CS Lewis's argument from plurality, but it's probably got some formal name I don't know.)

This seems like a strange argument to me. I feel like the plurality of religions makes it a lot less likely that any one of them is true. Has this one been used a lot, or just a couple times?

The only source of this that I know is Lewis. It wouldn't surprise me if it's got an older origin, but Lewis could turn a good phrase and he's the one apologists quote in those rare circumstances when they get past trying to pretend that plurality doesn't exist or arguing that everyone else is wrong. It's a sort of "yeah, everyone's getting the details wrong, but they're agreeing on one of the essentials" sort of thing, and figuring out the details is why we need the Bible tale.
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08-02-2015, 11:57 AM
RE: All the Theist Arguments
(07-02-2015 06:24 PM)rookiebatman Wrote:  14. Argument from Ignorance / Appeal to Ignorance: As applied to theistic argument, this is basically just saying, “you can’t prove God doesn’t exist” (or in the case of origins argumentation, “you can’t prove evolution is true”).

(08-02-2015 12:48 AM)DLJ Wrote:  18) The Argument from Evidence --- the argument goes something like this:
Using reason, logic and evidence based on the following irrefutable, scientifically proven facts...

Polemics and pseudoscience ( a combination of 14 and 18 above and an expectation that the default position <null hypothesis> is "it must have been god")
Evolution can't be true because you can't explain the blood clotting cascade, the bacteria flagellum... therefore it must have been god.
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08-02-2015, 12:03 PM
RE: All the Theist Arguments
(08-02-2015 11:12 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  The Cheese Sandwich Argument

[Image: JesusOnToast2.jpg]

There is a god! Bowing

A grilled cheese sandwich is proof enough for me. Thumbsup

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08-02-2015, 12:15 PM
RE: All the Theist Arguments
(07-02-2015 08:39 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Not a single one of those would lead them to conclude that THEIR god is the one that exists.Laughat

Since not a single of of those arguments has the aim of proving that THEIR god exists, you pointing out the obvious is quite...irrelevant Laughat
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08-02-2015, 01:04 PM
RE: All the Theist Arguments
(08-02-2015 12:15 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(07-02-2015 08:39 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Not a single one of those would lead them to conclude that THEIR god is the one that exists.Laughat

Since not a single of of those arguments has the aim of proving that THEIR god exists, you pointing out the obvious is quite...irrelevant Laughat

I would disagree with that. I think a lot of theist debaters toss out one of these arguments and then conclude with some rephrasing of "...therefore Christianity is true." The arguments themselves may not be for the purpose of proving one particular god, but they are commonly used that way.

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08-02-2015, 01:53 PM
RE: All the Theist Arguments
(08-02-2015 12:03 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(08-02-2015 11:12 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  The Cheese Sandwich Argument

[Image: JesusOnToast2.jpg]

There is a god! Bowing

A grilled cheese sandwich is proof enough for me. Thumbsup

...and his name is Elvis...

[Image: elvis-toast.jpg]

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Me.
N.B: I routinely make edits to posts to correct grammar or spelling, or to restate a point more clearly. I only notify edits if they materially change meaning.
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08-02-2015, 02:09 PM
RE: All the Theist Arguments
(08-02-2015 01:53 PM)gofish! Wrote:  
(08-02-2015 12:03 PM)Anjele Wrote:  There is a god! Bowing

A grilled cheese sandwich is proof enough for me. Thumbsup

...and his name is Elvis...

You are worshiping a false god! If Elvis is god how do you explain this?

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