Alla
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18-02-2014, 11:29 PM (This post was last modified: 18-02-2014 11:49 PM by Youkay.)
RE: Alla
(18-02-2014 08:52 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I personally don't dose up on huge amounts of vitamins and I wouldn't recommend anyone to do so.
However I certainly wouldn't tell a clinically depressed person that the RDA of vitamins is enough. There is no proof of this. I might point out to them that the RDA has a disclaimer that it is for healthy people, people whose physiology is already in balance. But I would be much more likely to suggest such a person go see a doctor or two, maybe even a psychiatrist.
You on the other hand seem quite happy to offer medical advise without appropriate evidence to back it up, whilst hypocritically criticising a doctor for doing the same thing

In the scientific community, there is quite a controversy about the dosage of vitamins and its effects. Some say it is helpful, some say it does not have any effect, and some say that it might be even unhealthy (which I disagree with, actually). There are these three contradictory opinions and plenty of papers which support them all. So it is quite futile to argue one point or the other with words alone.

There is no evidence that depression goes hand in hand with the lack of vitamins. Read this article to inform yourself: The molecular neurobiology of depression

My advice would be to not go and ask the opinion of medical doctors. Because usually their understanding of biology and molecular biology goes only skin deep. Rather educate yourself, if possible.


I strongly advice anyone to read this review, because it is a great example on how one should acknowledge all reports and experimental findings, remain open-minded and be critical.

Regarding the "monoamine-hypothisis"
"Two structurally unrelated compounds developed for non-psychiatric conditions, namely iproniazid and imipramine, had potent antidepressant effects in humans and were later shown to enhance central serotonin or noradrenaline transmission. Reserpine, an old antihypertensive agent that depletes monoamine stores, produced depressive symptoms in a subset of patients. Today’s antidepressant agents offer a better therapeutic index and lower rates of side effects for most patients, but they are still designed to increase monoamine transmission acutely, either by inhibiting neuronal reuptake (for example, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) such as fluoxetine) or by inhibiting degradation (for example, monoamine oxidase inhibitors such as tranylcypromine). Although these monoamine-based agents are potent antidepressants, and alterations in central monoamine function might contribute marginally to genetic vulnerability, the cause of depression is far from being a simple deficiency of central monoamines. Monoamine oxidase inhibitors and SSRIs produce immediate increases in monoamine transmission, whereas their mood-enhancing properties require weeks of treatment. Conversely, experimental depletion of monoamines can produce a mild reduction in mood in unmedicated depressed patients, but such manipulations do not alter mood in healthy controls. Moreover, studies with rodent stress models have shown that enhancements in dopamine and noradrenaline transmission can have maladaptive roles in stress-related disorders by strengthening memories of aversive life events."

If anything is unclear, I am happy to provide explenations.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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18-02-2014, 11:50 PM
RE: Alla
(18-02-2014 11:10 PM)Stevil Wrote:  What you struggle to understand is that recommending more than the RDA for unhealthy patients isn't a deviation.

Yes it is a deviation and that is my central point.

Quote:Why isn't it a deviation?
Because the RDA only speaks of what is recommended for healthy patients.
It gives no recommendation for unhealthy patients, therefore no deviation can be made.

No, science doesn't work that way. You are begging the question. You can't just assume that people with MDD form some sub-population with some special need in relation to nutrition. Evidence is required to do that. You have no evidence; and in the absence of evidence people with MDD can not be deemed to comprise a sub-population with special nutritional needs.

Quote:If we were recommending a higher dosage for healthy patients then that would be a different story. It would be a deviation from the recommendation that healthy patients have been given regarding the RDA.

No it isn't a different story. You are implying to know something about the etiology of depression such that vitamins and minerals are implicated and there is no such evidence. How do you know that nutrition plays a causative role in MDD? I know of no such evidence? Since there is no evidence in relation to nutrition and MDD why arbitrarily pick certain vitamins and minerals? Why not any other arbitrary factor? Hairstyle? Fashion? TV viewing habits?

Quote:But the RDA has nothing to say regarding unhealthy patients.

The designation "unhealthy patients" is meaningless. Is a person with scoliosis an "unhealthy person" and the RDA doesn't apply to them?

Quote:But it seem regardless of this fact, Chippy does make this recommendation.

Do you understand?

No you don't understand. Why of all the possible thousands of variables should magnesium ingestion be significant in relation to depression when there is no evidence to indicate any significance? What about water ingestion? What about cheese ingestion? What about soluble fibre ingestion?

In the absence of any specific evidence people with MDD do not form a sub-population with special dietary needs.
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18-02-2014, 11:56 PM
RE: Alla
(18-02-2014 11:29 PM)Youkay Wrote:  There is no evidence that depression goes hand in hand with the lack of vitamins. Read this article to inform yourself: The molecular neurobiology of depression

Thank-you. This is what I have been arguing from the beginning.

"Stevil" is claiming that evidence is required that people with MDD do not have special nutritional requirements in order to legitimately advocate that they stick to the RDA. This represents an attempt to shift the burden of proof and it is epistemically perverse.

In the absence of any specific evidence to the contrary there is absolutely no reason to even suspect that people with MDD have special dietary needs different from the RDA for any nutrient.
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19-02-2014, 12:02 AM
RE: Alla
(18-02-2014 11:29 PM)Youkay Wrote:  My advice would be to not go and ask the opinion of medical doctors. Because usually their understanding of biology and molecular biology goes only skin deep. Rather educate yourself, if possible.

Thank-you again. I have also been arguing this and demonstrating it. Someone with an undergraduate degree in biochemistry and pharmacology knows more about those subjects than your typical GP. And as far as training in psychiatry, most GPs complete 1 x 1 semester unit on the subject, i.e. 4 months worth of lectures and tutorials.
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19-02-2014, 12:16 AM (This post was last modified: 19-02-2014 12:22 AM by Youkay.)
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 12:02 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(18-02-2014 11:29 PM)Youkay Wrote:  My advice would be to not go and ask the opinion of medical doctors. Because usually their understanding of biology and molecular biology goes only skin deep. Rather educate yourself, if possible.

Thank-you again. I have also been arguing this and demonstrating it. Someone with an undergraduate degree in biochemistry and pharmacology knows more about those subjects than your typical GP. And as far as training in psychiatry, most GPs complete 1 x 1 semester unit on the subject, i.e. 4 months worth of lectures and tutorials.

Yes, and from what I heard when I was talking to medicine student is that they HATE the subjects molecular biology and biochemistry, because they have no fucking clue Big Grin

Medical doctors are not trained to know molecular biology and biochemistry, or psychology and psychiatry. They are trained to be able to make a diagnose, open a book and prescribe drugs.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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19-02-2014, 12:25 AM
RE: Alla
(18-02-2014 06:15 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(18-02-2014 12:17 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Yup.


Oh, but you are. I can see it in the desperation of your posts.


Why yes, if Hobo ChimpyChump Hobo the Pathological Liar can be trusted. Laughat

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! You are delusional.

WHat are you going to do, bled on me? You're a Loony.




It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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19-02-2014, 01:04 AM
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 12:25 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  WHat are you going to do, bled on me? You're a Loony.

You are the most moronic and ineffectual person on this forum.
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19-02-2014, 01:08 AM
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 01:04 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(19-02-2014 12:25 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  WHat are you going to do, bled on me? You're a Loony.

You are the most moronic and ineffectual person on this forum.

Oh, yes, of course: because YOU say so, and that makes it true.


In your feeble little (sad excuse for a) mind, anyway....

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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19-02-2014, 01:33 AM
RE: Alla
(18-02-2014 11:29 PM)Youkay Wrote:  In the scientific community, there is quite a controversy about the dosage of vitamins and its effects. Some say it is helpful, some say it does not have any effect, and some say that it might be even unhealthy (which I disagree with, actually). There are these three contradictory opinions and plenty of papers which support them all. So it is quite futile to argue one point or the other with words alone.
Yes it is easy to find what you are looking for, but difficult to discover the truth. Especially if you need to rely on experts and when they are each convinced they are right but they disagree with each other.

Regarding vitamins, I have no stance on whether they are beneficial or detrimental. Personally I wouldn't go for high doses of anything without doing much research and getting multiple opinions from professionals.

(18-02-2014 11:29 PM)Youkay Wrote:  There is no evidence that depression goes hand in hand with the lack of vitamins. Read this article to inform yourself: The molecular neurobiology of depression
I don't disagree with this. Chippy has brought up a similar point in the past and I don't disagree.

(18-02-2014 11:29 PM)Youkay Wrote:  My advice would be to not go and ask the opinion of medical doctors. Because usually their understanding of biology and molecular biology goes only skin deep. Rather educate yourself, if possible.
I think a person should do both, consult professionals and do self research.

My problem with Chippy's stance isn't that RDA is meaningless and isn't that I think depression sufferers should take high doses of vitamins.

My problem is with regards to the strength of his claim.
He said that the RDA dosage is sufficient for depression sufferers.

This is a positive claim and does not come with the required proof.

A better way of saying it would be:
1. The RDA is a recommendation of dosage for healthy people to maintain vitamin balance.
2. There hasn't been a proven link between depression sufferers and vitamin deficiency but this isn't to say that there aren't depression sufferers with vitamin deficiencies whom could benefit from doses of vitamins.
3. There haven't been sufficient quality studies to determine what level of vitamin intake is recommended for depression sufferers. This could be because there are many causes of depression thus they cannot lump this group into one recommendation.

It could very well be that each depression sufferer needs to be assessed individually to determine the best course of action. This course of action may or may not involve a supplement of vitamins.

If the above is true then one cannot make a blanket statement
"RDA dosage is sufficient for depression sufferers" and the RDA certainly does not make that claim.
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19-02-2014, 01:54 AM (This post was last modified: 19-02-2014 02:01 AM by Raptor Jesus.)
RE: Alla
When is Alla going to finally respond to the the molecular neurobiology of depression, the Indian caste system, and the prison colony which is Australia?

Fucking Alla! Always dodging the difficult questions.

...
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