Alla
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19-02-2014, 02:27 AM
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 01:33 AM)Stevil Wrote:  My problem is with regards to the strength of his claim.
He said that the RDA dosage is sufficient for depression sufferers.


This is a positive claim and does not come with the required proof.

No, again you just don't understand the epistemology that underlies biomedical experiment design.

It is you that is making the positive claim that there is some connection between vitamins and MDD. There is absolutely no evidence for that claim. There is no evidence for even a suspicion that there is a connection between vitamins and MDD.

Your association of MDD with vitamins is entirely arbitrary. Why vitamins? Why not something else? Why not hairstyle? Or ice-cream preference?

Quote:A better way of saying it would be:
1. The RDA is a recommendation of dosage for healthy people to maintain vitamin balance.
2. There hasn't been a proven link between depression sufferers and vitamin deficiency but this isn't to say that there aren't depression sufferers with vitamin deficiencies whom could benefit from doses of vitamins.
3. There haven't been sufficient quality studies to determine what level of vitamin intake is recommended for depression sufferers. This could be because there are many causes of depression thus they cannot lump this group into one recommendation.

No, all of that is completely unwarranted. There is no reason to propose that there is any link between vitamins and depression. Absolutely none. Why are you taking it for granted that there may be some connection when there is absolutely no evidence for such a position?

There is no evidence that people with MDD will not improve if they wear white leather shoes. An infinite number of such statements can be generated. You are talking shit. There hasn't been s study that shows that if people with MDD wear white leather shoes their MDD will not improve. What of it? That doesn't entail that we have to assume that wearing white leather shoes will improve some people's depression. That is in effect what you are proposing.

Quote:It could very well be that each depression sufferer needs to be assessed individually to determine the best course of action. This course of action may or may not involve a supplement of vitamins.

You are begging the question. There is no evidence whatsoever that vitamins have anything to do with MDD.

Quote:If the above is true then one cannot make a blanket statement
"RDA dosage is sufficient for depression sufferers" and the RDA certainly does not make that claim.

On what grounds are you even linking the RDA with depression. None! There is no evidentiary reason to be speaking about vitamins and MDD.

The null hypothesis is that in relation to nutrition those with MDD do NOT form a sub-population. On that basis there is no reason to deviate from the RDA.

You are assuming that there may be some link between vitamins and depression. There is no more evidence for that than there is that hairstyle is linked to depression.

There is no current evidence-based neurobiological model that proposes that there is some link between vitamins and depression. None. So you shouldn't even be talking about vitamins and depresssion. You can't just assume that there is some connection without any evidence. We don't need evidence that there is no such connection to discard pseudoscientific medicine. That isn't how science works. Evidence that vitamins are connected to depression is needed to justify bringing that idea to the table.
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19-02-2014, 02:33 AM
RE: Alla
Youkay Wrote:My advice would be to not go and ask the opinion of medical doctors. Because usually their understanding of biology and molecular biology goes only skin deep. Rather educate yourself, if possible.
Stevil Wrote:I think a person should do both, consult professionals and do self research.

Except medical doctors are no experts. I was hoping I made it clear that when it comes to such questions, medical doctors are just as good as any random person. Generally speaking, they have no deep understanding.

I am a professional in this topic. I have graduaded Chemistry and later Biochemistry and am currently persuing an academic carreer. You can ask me, and I will try to give you honest and unbiased answers.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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19-02-2014, 02:35 AM
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 01:54 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  When is Alla going to finally respond to the the molecular neurobiology of depression, the Indian caste system, and the prison colony which is Australia?

Fucking Alla! Always dodging the difficult questions.

...you know that mythical sorta hell thingie...?

...I suppose whenever it, ah, mythically freezes over.....?

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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19-02-2014, 02:36 AM
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 01:08 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Oh, yes, of course: because YOU say so, and that makes it true.

No, because you are actually an ineffectual moron as evidenced by your posting history.

You are without a doubt the biggest retard on this forum and that is a widely held view. You are an utter imbecile. When you post pictures, like the retard that you are, people are laughing at you. You have absolutely nothing to offer the forum. You are as useless as you are stupid.
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19-02-2014, 02:42 AM (This post was last modified: 19-02-2014 02:46 AM by Youkay.)
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 01:33 AM)Stevil Wrote:  He said that the RDA dosage is sufficient for depression sufferers.

This is a positive claim and does not come with the required proof.

Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA)
The Recommended Dietary Allowances (RDAs) are quantities of nutrients in the diet that are required to maintain good health in people.


Depression can be attributed to a variety of causes. There is no indication that vitamins might be among those causes. This means that there is no disregulation in the vitamin hoemostasis of the patient. In other words, it means that in average healthy people and people with depression have the same amounts of vitamins in their body.

It follows directly that the daily vitamin allowance for a healthy person and the daily vitamin allowance for a person with depression should not differ. There would be no reason and no basis to assume the opposite.


PS: diseases or disorders are generally caused by misregulation of certain processes. Medication aims to counteract these misregulations by supplementing/sequestering bio-molecules or inhibiting/activating protein targets. It appears to me that you didn't know this.

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19-02-2014, 02:42 AM
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 02:33 AM)Youkay Wrote:  Except medical doctors are no experts. I was hoping I made it clear that when it comes to such questions, medical doctors are just as good as any random person. Generally speaking, they have no deep understanding.

He doesn't understand that.

He has the idea in his head that there is some connection between depression and vitamins simply because Mark Fulton asserted that there was. He didn't present any evidence to that effect, he just appealed to his "authority" as a "doctor" and made the assertion. Consequently, Stevil now thinks there must be some connection between vitamins and depression.
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19-02-2014, 03:01 AM (This post was last modified: 19-02-2014 03:07 AM by Youkay.)
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 01:33 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(18-02-2014 11:29 PM)Youkay Wrote:  In the scientific community, there is quite a controversy about the dosage of vitamins and its effects. Some say it is helpful, some say it does not have any effect, and some say that it might be even unhealthy (which I disagree with, actually). There are these three contradictory opinions and plenty of papers which support them all. So it is quite futile to argue one point or the other with words alone.
Yes it is easy to find what you are looking for, but difficult to discover the truth. Especially if you need to rely on experts and when they are each convinced they are right but they disagree with each other.

Oh, and I realized something else which needs clarification.

When scientists disagree on a subject or if there is heavy controversy surrounding it, you can not talk about "discovering the truth". It is the job of scientists to "discover the truth" through experimentations and your job is it to inform yourself adequately and remain open-minded if there is controversy.

Having said that, there is no indication that vitamins have any effect on depressive disorders. And there isn't any controversy about it in the scientific community. Always keep in mind that -generally speaking- medical doctors do not belong to the scientific community. (That is the reason why scientists have a "Doctor of Philosophy" and medical doctors have a "Doctor of Medicine")

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19-02-2014, 03:40 AM
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 02:27 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
Quote:If the above is true then one cannot make a blanket statement
"RDA dosage is sufficient for depression sufferers" and the RDA certainly does not make that claim.

On what grounds are you even linking the RDA with depression. None! There is no evidentiary reason to be speaking about vitamins and MDD.
If this is true then shouldn't the claim be "RDA dosage is irrelevant for depression sufferers"?
In this way you could say that even with a depression sufferer whom is deficient in vitamins that treating this imbalance (even with RDA dosage) will have no effect with regards to their depression condition.
Would this be the case?
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19-02-2014, 03:46 AM
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 02:42 AM)Youkay Wrote:  PS: diseases or disorders are generally caused by misregulation of certain processes. Medication aims to counteract these misregulations by supplementing/sequestering bio-molecules or inhibiting/activating protein targets. It appears to me that you didn't know this.

I'm not sure what this means with regards to vitamin deficiencies. I assume these deficiencies can cause illnesses which can be corrected/cured by addressing the imbalance?
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19-02-2014, 03:48 AM
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 03:40 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(19-02-2014 02:27 AM)Chippy Wrote:  On what grounds are you even linking the RDA with depression. None! There is no evidentiary reason to be speaking about vitamins and MDD.
If this is true then shouldn't the claim be "RDA dosage is irrelevant for depression sufferers"?
In this way you could say that even with a depression sufferer whom is deficient in vitamins that treating this imbalance (even with RDA dosage) will have no effect with regards to their depression condition.
Would this be the case?

I find the way you formulated that sentence slightly confusing, but if I understood you correctly, then yes.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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