Alla
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19-02-2014, 03:51 AM (This post was last modified: 19-02-2014 03:57 AM by Youkay.)
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 03:46 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(19-02-2014 02:42 AM)Youkay Wrote:  PS: diseases or disorders are generally caused by misregulation of certain processes. Medication aims to counteract these misregulations by supplementing/sequestering bio-molecules or inhibiting/activating protein targets. It appears to me that you didn't know this.

I'm not sure what this means with regards to vitamin deficiencies. I assume these deficiencies can cause illnesses which can be corrected/cured by addressing the imbalance?

Yes.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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19-02-2014, 03:51 AM
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 03:01 AM)Youkay Wrote:  (That is the reason why scientists have a "Doctor of Philosophy" and medical doctors have a "Doctor of Medicine")

In Australia a GP (General Practitioner) doesn't even have that, they have an "MB BS", i.e. Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery. As you have stated that doesn't give them specialised knowledge in any branch of science or even in any branch of medicine. To gain specialised knowledge in a branch of medicine they have to do more study to become psychiatrists, cardiologists, neurologists, etc and even after that they aren't scientists. The only medical doctors that are scientists are those that have gone on to earn an actual PhD in one of the biomedical sciences and most of them are in research not in clinics seeing patients.

As a GP Mark Fulton has absolutely no expertise in psychiatry or nutrition. Like most suburban GPs it is very likely that Mark Fulton hasn't read a scientific paper since he was a student at university. He didn't cite any peer reviewed biomedical journals when I was arguing with him. All of his links were to blog articles.
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19-02-2014, 04:00 AM (This post was last modified: 19-02-2014 04:22 AM by Chippy.)
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 03:40 AM)Stevil Wrote:  If this is true then shouldn't the claim be "RDA dosage is irrelevant for depression sufferers"?
In this way you could say that even with a depression sufferer whom is deficient in vitamins that treating this imbalance (even with RDA dosage) will have no effect with regards to their depression condition.
Would this be the case?

No and that is absurd proposition. The foundational assumption in the human sciences is that everyone is in the same population unless specific evidence is produced that indicates otherwise.

You just have no clue what you are talking about.

Vitamins and the RDA have absolutely nothing to do with MDD and neither does ice-cream, cricket bats, motor oil, mobile phones and dildos. Should containers of motor oil also be labelled to say "Motor oil is irrelevant for depression sufferers"?

Just because some quacks claim that vitamins can treat MDD doesn't mean that the scientific community believes that. No scientist that specializes in depression believes that MDD is connected with vitamins.
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19-02-2014, 04:02 AM
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 03:46 AM)Stevil Wrote:  I'm not sure what this means with regards to vitamin deficiencies. I assume these deficiencies can cause illnesses which can be corrected/cured by addressing the imbalance?

Yes but not with fucking vitamins and minerals as I have been telling you for literally months.
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19-02-2014, 04:07 AM
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 03:46 AM)Stevil Wrote:  I'm not sure what this means with regards to vitamin deficiencies. I assume these deficiencies can cause illnesses which can be corrected/cured by addressing the imbalance?

For fucks sake, how many times does the same thing need to be told to you for it to sink into your thick head?

THERE IS NO DEMONSTRATED CONNECTION BETWEEN VITAMINS AND MAJOR DEPRESSIVE DISORDER (MDD). NONE. AND NO SCIENTISTS ARE DEBATING ANY SUCH THING. NO NEUROBIOLOGICAL MODEL OF MDD EXISTS WHICH ATTRIBUTES VITAMIN DEFICIENCIES A CAUSAL ROLE IN THE ETIOLOGY OF MDD. NONE.
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19-02-2014, 04:09 AM
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 04:00 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(19-02-2014 03:40 AM)Stevil Wrote:  If this is true then shouldn't the claim be "RDA dosage is irrelevant for depression sufferers"?
In this way you could say that even with a depression sufferer whom is deficient in vitamins that treating this imbalance (even with RDA dosage) will have no effect with regards to their depression condition.
Would this be the case?

No and that is absurd proposition. The foundational assumption in the human sciences is that everyone is in the same population unless specific evidence is produced that indicates otherwise.

I said earlier that Stevil's sentence is confusing. But it appears to me that he understood that vitamins do not help against depressive disorders.

I thought what he said was something like this:
"When treating a vitamin deficient and at the same time depressive person with vitamin supplements, it will onlz help the vitamin deficiency but not the depressive disorder."

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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19-02-2014, 04:10 AM
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 04:00 AM)Chippy Wrote:  Should containers of motor oil also be labelled say "Motor oil is irrelevant for depression sufferers"?
It would be inaccurate and misleading to say "Intake of motor oil at the rate of one litre per day is sufficient for depression sufferers"

It would be accurate to say "Intake of motor oil is irrelevant for depression sufferers"

The first statement leads a person to think that intake of motor oil is relevant for depression suffers and in turn that leads a person to think "how do they know what rate of intake is sufficient?" which then leads a person on a journey for evidence which supports that claim.
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19-02-2014, 04:12 AM (This post was last modified: 19-02-2014 04:23 AM by Chippy.)
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 03:48 AM)Youkay Wrote:  
(19-02-2014 03:40 AM)Stevil Wrote:  If this is true then shouldn't the claim be "RDA dosage is irrelevant for depression sufferers"?
In this way you could say that even with a depression sufferer whom is deficient in vitamins that treating this imbalance (even with RDA dosage) will have no effect with regards to their depression condition.
Would this be the case?

I find the way you formulated that sentence slightly confusing, but if I understood you correctly, then yes.

He thinks you are saying that vitamins can be used to treat the impaired biochemical processes that you referred to. He still hasn't thrown away the idea that there is some connection between vitamins and depression.

Mark Fulton--because he is a "doctor"--declared that vitamins are connected with MDD and the universe has reorganised itself to accomodate The Doctor's decree.
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19-02-2014, 04:14 AM (This post was last modified: 19-02-2014 04:18 AM by Chippy.)
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 04:10 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(19-02-2014 04:00 AM)Chippy Wrote:  Should containers of motor oil also be labelled say "Motor oil is irrelevant for depression sufferers"?
It would be inaccurate and misleading to say "Intake of motor oil at the rate of one litre per day is sufficient for depression sufferers"

It would be accurate to say "Intake of motor oil is irrelevant for depression sufferers"

The first statement leads a person to think that intake of motor oil is relevant for depression suffers and in turn that leads a person to think "how do they know what rate of intake is sufficient?" which then leads a person on a journey for evidence which supports that claim.

It's your bad English that I was quoting not my own.

Do you finally understand that Mark Fulton is full of shit and that everything I posted in relation to that matter is entirely justified?

There is no evidence that people with MDD will benefit from consuming vitamins in excess of the RDA.
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19-02-2014, 04:32 AM
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 04:14 AM)Chippy Wrote:  Do you finally understand that Mark Fulton is full of shit and that everything I posted in relation to that matter is entirely justified?
No, your phrase that RDA is sufficient for sufferers of depression was inaccurate, misleading and not supported by evidence.

But I do now understand that your position is that vitamin intake is irrelevant with regards to depression.

I had hangups with your claim, and it seems I was justified in that.
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